Local News
Elaine Goldstine hounoured at JNF Gala; Stephen Harper opens up about his deep admiration for Israel
By BERNIE BELLAN It had been over 20 years since the Jewish National Fund had actually held a Negev Dinner in Winnipeg. After having used the Concert Hall as the venue for the annual JNF Gala for many years it was a little strange to be entering into the Convention Centre for this year’s affair instead.
But, it was the Convention Centre that was the setting for this year’s JNF Negev Gala on Thursday, May 11, when outgoing CEO of the Jewish Federation Elaine Goldstine was honoured. The fact that former Prime Minister Stephen Harper was also present – and engaged in a lively dialogue with interviewer Steven Kroft, added to the interest level for the some 900 audience members who were present. (By the way, although JNF Executive Director David Greaves referred to the sit down between Harper and Kroft as a session between“the two Steves”, I told Greaves that Harper dislikes being called “Steve.” I had read that years ago when he was first introduced to former US President George W. Bush. Bush liked to give everyone a nickname when he met them. Naturally, Stephen Harper became “Steve,” but our former Prime Minister was not tickled by that.)
In speaking about her being chosen this year’s Negev Gala honouree, Elaine Goldstine noted she had “chosen to allocate some of the funds raised tonight locally and I have chosen Shalom Residences” to receive a portion of the funds.
Anyone who knows Elaine would understand how true it was when she said her credo as CEO has been “Never close the door on anyone.”
And, following a lengthy speech from her husband Ian, who went on at some length describing how he and Elaine first met, along with quite a few stories about their lives together, Elaine demonstrated her wit when, in addressing Ian, she said: “We have been on this journey since I was 15 – as you told my entire life story.”
David Greaves introduced former PM Stephen Harper, saying to him: “It takes courage just being a mentsch to stand with those who stand alone. There has not been a friend to Israel like you ever.”
At that point “the two Steves” took their seats on the podium for what became a 35-minute back and forth during which Stephen Harper was at turns eloquent in describing his passion for Israel, insightful when discussing current situations in the world, and occasionally very funny as he related anecdotes from his past.
Steven Kroft began by asking Harper about the time he became the first Canadian Prime Minister to address Israel’s Knesset, in 2014. Kroft suggested “that speech is widely considered to be one of the strongest speeches in support of Israel by a non-head of state. He asked Harper to talk about his strong support for the State of Israel.
Harper responded that “one of the great honours of my life was to see the creation” of the Hula Valley Stephen and Laureen Harper Bird Sanctuary.
Then, Harper added this: “In Canada we don’t name things after living people so many people who visit the bird sanctuary assume I’ve passed away.”
Harper expounded upon how he came to develop such a strong affinity for the State of Israel, explaining that he “grew up in a household that supported Israel.”
But there was more to it than that, he explained: “I had another reason (to support Israel). Israel is a friend and an ally and is a part of the family of democratic nations. Israel faces the same threats as other democratic nations face, but Israel is much closer to those threats.
“Supporting Israel is unequivocally in the interests of this country and should be in the interests of all politicians,” Harper said.
“But I found that just about every politician is a friend of Israel when they’re speaking to a Jewish audience,” he observed.
Steven Kroft asked Harper whether “we should get worked up when Canada supports one of the resolutions at the UN that are critical of Israel?”
Harper answered that “those resolutions are pro forma and they’re not really indicative of what’s going on around the world. In that sense they’re not something to worry about… But what do you do when Western leaders go along with those resolutions? So what. I’m the only one who expressed an honest opinion.”
Kroft asked Harper what he thinks the impact of the Abraham Accords has been?
Harper suggested that the US and other Western countries have distanced themselves from Saudi Arabia – leading to Saudi Arabia broadening relations with China. He observed that “it’s tough for Saudi Arabia to be an ally of the Western world because we do nothing but criticize them.”
Harper noted a comment that had been made to him by an Arab diplomat, with reference to the behaviour of Western governments: “You sell off your friends and buy off your enemies.”
As far as the Abraham Accords are concerned though, Harper suggested that the leaders of the Arab countries that signed on to those accords (Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Sudan, and Morocco) are interested in bringing their countries “into the modern world.” (Sudan seems to be going through a reversion to civil war, however, something that plagued that country for years. It will be interesting to see whether whoever emerges on top is going to want to remain in the Abraham Accords.)
Harper added this observation about the role that China is now playing in the Middle East: “The Chinese have been a real brake on Iran. They (the Chinese) want them (the Iranians) to live up to the accords they recently signed with Saudi Arabia.”
Yet, at the same time, Harper had this to say about Iran: “I worry more about Iran than any other country in the world because they believe in developing nuclear weapons so that can use them and Allah will come to their aid.”
Kroft asked Harper about “judicial reform” in Israel and whether what’s been happening with moves to weaken the judiciary have affected Israel’s credibility ? He also asked what advice Harper might have for Canadian Jews who want to express their opinions on Israeli government policy?
Harper responded: “Regardless what one thinks of what is going on in Israel today, one should be supportive of Israel…Only in Israel could you give a 100% pro-Israel speech (as Harper did when he addressed the Knesset in 2014) and be heckled by both the right and the left (in the Knesset).”
At that point Harper told a story that was very funny – and was based on a true experience that he had in 2017, after he was no longer Prime Minister.
He was in Australia and one evening he went to a bar with another former prime minister, John Howard, who had been PM of Australia. Who should walk in but another former prime minister, this time Bibi Netanyahu?
That led Harper to tell this joke, based on the conversation he had with Howard and Netanyahu that evening. (He explained that he was changing the story somewhat, substituting the Prime Minister of Great Britain for the Prime Minister of Australia):
Three former prime ministers gather together at a bar.
The former PM of Canada says: “I was prime minister of a country that had 30 million people.”
The former PM of Great Britain says: “I was prime minister of a country that had 60 million people.”
The former PM of Israel says: “I was prime minister of a country that had 8 million prime ministers!”
Kroft turned to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. He asked Harper “What is Putin like?”
Harper said that he had called for Russia’s expulsion from the G8 in 2014 when Russia first invaded Ukraine and seized Crimea.
He continued: “I’ve met many leaders, many businesspeople, many celebrities, but the one person – of all the people I’ve met, who I’m asked to say what he’s like, is Putin.
“It’s because he’s a real life Bond villain…But whenever he came to a meeting and walked into the room he was always extremely well prepared. In many ways he’s very impressive, but he’s also a very evil person.”
Harper went on to say that he hates “when people compare democratically elected leaders with dictators.” He said that, back in 2008, when George W. Bush was President of the US, he and Bush were “prepared to bring Ukraine into NATO, but others weren’t…The failure to do that,” he suggested, “led to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
“There is strength through deterrence,” he added.
“How is it (the war in Ukraine) going to end?” Kroft asked.
“What enough people don’t understand,” Harper responded, “is that Ukrainians are prepared to fight to the last man. They know that the moment they give up they’re going to get slaughtered.”
He also noted that the Government of Canada “should be very proud” of the support it’s given Ukraine. “We did a large amount of the training of their army,” Harper noted.
However, Harper predicted that the war “will go on for a very long time. Putin understands that if he’s not the strongest man in Russia, then he’s a dead man.”
Kroft turned to the subject of anti-Semitism, asking “How is it different today?”
Harper suggested that anti-Semitism was increasing even as far back as when he was Prime Minister. “The fragmentation, the polarization” in society have been contributing factors, he observed, along with the spread of hate on social media.
Nonetheless, he said that he was “optimistic about it (a decline in anti-Semitism) in the long term, but it’s exposed to us the complexity of public opinion. Social media has unleashed a voice that was always out there…What worries me more,” he suggested though, “is the rise of global jihadism.”
Further, Harper said that what “worries me the most is the anti-Semitism that has come out of the left – out of academia, that had led to the BDS (Boycott, Divest, Sanctions) movement.
“The difference is that it (anti-Semitism on the left) tends to make anti-Semitism intellectually respectable. Let’s be under no illusion what it really is…
“By any standard of freedom, of democracy, and of justice, Israel is one of the freest countries in the world.”
And then, with a reference to the protesters who were outside the Convention Centre protesting against the Jewish National Fund, Harper said: “The people outside are not protesters, they’re haters.”
That’s about as unbiased a report that I could write about what Stephen Harper had to say at the Negev Gala. Did I agree with everything he said? No, but the audience sure loved it.
Local News
Former Winnipegger Libby Goszer in need of a kidney donor
By MYRON LOVE It is written in the Mishnah that whoever saves a life is considered to have saved an entire world.
About 18 months ago, Libby Goszer’s kidneys failed and she went into renal failure. She undergoes dialysis – at home – on a daily basis. Her life hangs in the balance and she is reaching out – with the help of first cousins Marnie Ross and Sharon Goszer Tritt – to the community in hopes of finding a kidney donor.
The only child of the late Boris and Eve Goszer grew up in West Kildonan. After graduating with a degree in Psychology from the University of Winnipeg in 1982, she relocated to Vancouver for post-graduate studies and built a life there. She married Doug, had one son, Micah, and practiced clinical psychology for about 35 years.
Her health problems began in 2007 when she was diagnosed with Acute MyeLoid Leukemia. “I underwent a stem cell transplant,” she reports. “As it happens, my donor was Israeli. The operation was successful. I did very well for a number of years.”
(Ed. note: In the June 12, 2019 issue of The Jewish Post & News I wrote about Libby’s having received a stem cell transplant from an Israeli donor. Libby was a featured speaker at a dinner sponsored by an organization know as Ezer Mizion. Former Winnipegger Solly Dreman was instrumental in fundraising for that organization and had played a pivotal role in holding a fundraising dinner in Winnipeg that June to raise awareness of Ezer Mizion.
Here’s what I wrote back then about Libby’s story:
“Libby Goszer told her own heart-rending story of how close shecame to dying when she herself developed acute leukemia in 2006.
“ ‘One moment I was a confident professional, wife and mother; the next moment I was in an isolation room…After treatment, I was given a 60 percent chance my leukemia would return – and it did. I needed a perfect stem cell donor match.”
“In November 2008, fortunately, that perfect match was found in Ezer Mizion’s registry. Transplant recipients aren’t able to find out the names of their donors until a year after having received their transplant but, waiting on the surgical bed that day in November, Goszer said she was overjoyed when she ‘saw a woman come in carrying a bag of stem cells. It never occurred to me though that bag had been transferred all the way from
Israel.’
“In 2012 Libby ‘learned about the donor’s identity’ and in 2013 she and her family flew to Israel to meet her donor, whose name was Moshe, along with his immediate family.
“ ‘They (Moshe and his family) were as excited to meet me as I was to meet him,’ Goszer said. ‘From the darkness of a life-threatening illness has emerged a set of relationships between Moshe, his family, and my family.’
“In closing, Goszer urged members of the audience to think of this ‘night as a night of solidarity where we as Jews will be reminded that we will do what we can to take care of one another.’ “)
Fast forward seven years and Myron continues his story…
“The drawback, however, Libby now notes, is that the immunosuppressive drugs that she had to be on to prevent the rejection of her earlier transplant caused irreparable damage to her kidneys over several years.
I first became aware of Libby Goszer’s plight when – a few weeks ago – I came across an information sheet – prepared by Marnie Ross – while at a community program at the Shaarey Zedek.
“Sharon (Goszer Tritt) helped get the information sheets into the Shaarey Zedek,” Ross says. “I also left copies at the Rady Centre.”
The sheet describes how kidney disease has impacted Goszer’s life – in particular the loss of energy and extreme physical and mental fatigue. Ross has also created a Facebook post (https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1Bj35eg5nz/ which, so far, has generated 76 shares. “We hope that the people who have responded will share the information with their online contacts,” she says. “We want to get the word out.”
Goszer adds that the members of Temple Sholom, the congregation which she has belonged to since 1992, have also been supportive.
She reports that three friends have come forth to test to see if they are a match. One of the three may be and is undergoing more tests to make sure.
“If you want a really thorough medical check-up, “she observes, “I would recommend that you volunteer to become a kidney donor. They test everything to make sure that the donor is in good health and won’t suffer any damage to their health by donating a kidney.”
She further points out that you can live a long and healthy life with one kidney.
Goszer is also listed with Renewal Canada, a Jewish organization that “helps patients and their families navigate the complex process of kidney transplant, from finding a donor to arranging the transplant and beyond”. The organization also provides financial support for donors “to make sure their incredible self-sacrifice is as easy as can be and comes at no financial cost to them”.
Interested readers can contact renewalcanada.org/libbygoszer – or contact the Living Donor Kidney Program at Vancouver Coastal Health at kidneydonornurse@vch.ca (or phone 1-604 875-4111) and include Libby’s name and birthday (July 31,1958).
While Libby Goszer’s friend is a strong possibility, she notes that you can’t be sure until final approval is received.
“I generally am a positive and optimistic individual,” she says. “There are times when I feel down but, overall, I continue to have faith and hope that things will turn out well.”
“I have so much living left to do and I ask you, from the bottom of my heart, to consider kidney donation. I long to return to a fuller clinical practice, resume volunteering and, of course, watch my son wed and raise his children in our Jewish way of life.”
Local News
Hundreds rally against opening of Nakba exhibit at Human Rights Museum
By NOAH STRAUSS Around 300 people gathered outside the Canadian Museum for Human Rights on Friday during the grand opening of the museum’s newest exhibit, “Palestine Uprooted: Nakba Past and Present.” (Ed. note: The CBC report on the protest said there were “100” people at the rally. I know there were more than 100, but I’m not sure there were 300 either.) The exhibit, which had a limited number of tickets available for opening night, sold out. The Canadian Palestinian Association of Manitoba had originally planned a rally in support of the exhibit’s opening, but it was cancelled just days before the event.
The Nakba, which means “catastrophe” in Arabic, refers to the displacement of an estimated 750,000 Palestinians during the 1947–1949 war surrounding the establishment of the State of Israel. The exhibit has drawn criticism from members of Winnipeg’s Jewish community and others who argue that it does not acknowledge the displacement and persecution of Jewish communities in many Arab and Muslim-majority countries following Israel’s independence and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Historians estimate that between 850,000 and 950,000 Jews left or were expelled from Arab and Muslim-majority countries during the decades surrounding Israel’s establishment. In countries including Iraq, Egypt, and Yemen, many had their property confiscated, while others left because of persecution or increasing hostility.
Supporters of the Jewish community came from all faiths and backgrounds. The Jewish Post spoke with Lisa Lewis, a longtime supporter of the Jewish community.
“I think there is a crisis of antisemitism happening right now,” Lewis said.
She was one of many non-Jewish community members who attended the rally. Lewis said she has been an active ally since the 2000s, helping Argentine immigrants come to Canada. Following the October 7 attacks on Israel, she said she has become a more vocal supporter of the Jewish community. During the rally, she wore a Magen David necklace.
Lewis also criticized the museum’s approach to the exhibit.
“The Jewish community organizations that represent the majority of the Jewish community weren’t consulted on something like this,” she said.
Cindy Clubb, another ally of the Jewish community who attended the rally, also voiced her concerns.
“I grew up with prominent businesspeople and members of the academic and medical communities. I don’t know what we would do without our Jewish cooperation. So I’m up here to support them, and I think all of Winnipeg should be out here,” Clubb said.
One protester, who identified herself as Michelle, said, “We are against the Nakba exhibit. It’s all lies.”
Gustavo Zentner, Vice President of CIJA Manitoba and Saskatchewan, said, “We are calling on Minister Miller to hold the museum leadership accountable. The Minister of Canadian Heritage needs to ensure that national institutions are not weaponized against Canadians to serve a one-sided political agenda. These concerns were expressed not only by the Jewish community, but by many concerned Canadians. At its core, this is a Canadian issue.”
Zentner did not participate in the community rally. He went on to say, “We are proud of the many community members, allies, and organizers who gathered at the museum before Shabbat began to demonstrate their concerns.”
The museum defended its decision to present the exhibit. CEO Isha Khan said that “human rights matter precisely when they are inconvenient.” She added that the museum “belongs in the collective memory of Canadians.”
The exhibit is scheduled to remain on display until November 2028.
Local News
Interviews with the curator of the Nakba exhibit and the CEO of the Human Rights Museum
By BERNIE BELLAN On June 26, I was invited to attend the Canadian Museum for Human Right to see the Nakba exhibit prior to its being opened to the public. While I was there I was given the opportunity to interview the curator for the exhibit, Isabelle Masson, along with CMHR CEO Isha Khan. What follows are the transcripts of those interviews (edited only to remove pause words like “uh” and phrases that were repeated). The first interview was with Isabelle Masson:
Jewish Post: Several representatives of Winnipeg Jewish community organization say that they weren’t fairly consulted on this exhibit. How do you respond to that?
Masson: We came to this project with an awareness that Palestinian voices are often marginalized, even silenced, and an awareness that Islamophobia and anti-Palestinian racism have an impact on whose voice is heard and whose suffering is recognized. And so we intentionally chose to centre Palestinian voices with this exhibition.
JP: But to the point that many Jewish representatives of organizations and people within the community at large feel that the Jewish community should have been consulted on an issue that had such a direct impact on the Jewish community – did you not feel an obligation to consult with the Jewish community?
Masson: I think the best person to talk further about this issue is our CEO, Isha.
JP: In terms of the exhibit itself, I must say it really stresses the suffering that Palestinians have endured. But, in looking at other refugee situations around the world, the Palestinian situation seems to me to be unique in that there has never been an effort to resettle Palestinians within the countries to which they were forced to flee.
Do you not think that separates their situation (from other refugee situations) and, in some ways, it has made their situation worse than it could have been?
Masson: Well, the exhibit not only centres that experience of forced displacement and disposition as a longstanding experience across five generation that you know is tied to human rights violations that are ongoing today, but it also I want to point out, you know, foregrounds beauty, foregrounds resilience, foregrounds the maintenance of identity and belonging across time and across that experience. So there’s also these elements about this exhibition because it was also about humanizing Palestinians – about people with families with stories, with creativity – and coming back to some of the videos what interviewees say, right, we hope that Palestinians can be seen as fully human and hope that they can see Palestinians as having human rights and this this story today in this gallery is is a story about human rights.
JP: If I can focus on one particular aspect of the exhibit that I read this morning when I was sent the preview, it referred to what happened between the years 2000 and 2005 as a Palestinian uprising. But the Israeli term would be the Intifada which for them meant large-scale attacks – terrorist bombings by some Palestinians. Did you not think it necessary to include that in a larger context?
Masson: Well, we use uprising because it’s the most more accessible term in the exhibition and we, you know, we’re focusing really here on an artwork by artists – Palestinian American artist Reggie Cook and with an artwork that was trying to translate the experience of of occupation into what is created. So that’s the context in which we talk about that.
JP: But to ignore what happened during the uprising seems to me to leave out a major part of the context.
Masson: I don’t think that we are ignoring that. This exhibit is not about the full story of what has happened in Palestine, in Israel. It’s not, you know, the scope of this small exhibition. This small exhibition has a scope and the scope was really to create an opportunity and a place for Canadians to be able to encounter Palestinian Canadians and hear their voices.
JP: Given the current mood in the Middle East and the ongoing tensions between Israel and various other actors, the concern among many in the Jewish community that this is going to lead to a heightening of antisemitism and an exhibit like this seems that it’s not going to do much to improve relations between Jews and Palestinians when it focuses on only one side of the story. How do you respond to that?
Masson: Well, this is only one exhibit of of many, of many stories that we have.
Following is my interview with Isha Khan. Khan began by explaining that she is “the CEO at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights and I’ve been here as CEO of the museum since August of 2020. So almost six years.”
JP: So let’s get right down to discussing (the exhibit). I spoke to the curator. I asked a lot of questions about the exhibit itself. I’m more interested in asking (you) about the general context and the atmosphere in the community. The accusation has been made repeatedly by various leaders of Jewish organizations that you have not been willing to consult on this exhibit. How do you respond to that?
Khan: I think the word consult can mean many things. We have a community engagement practice. So for us that means that depending on the scope of the exhibit and this exhibit is about Palestinian Canadians and their experiences, the impacts of the human rights impacts, of forced displacement, which means we engage with that community as we share their stories. Many folks in the Jewish community will say we haven’t consulted with them and yet we have met with leaders of Jewish organizations from across Canada, main uh, major federations, foundations, local Jewish organization representatives many times to talk about this exhibit, to explain what its scope is, what it’s about, what it’s intended to do, and most importantly, what it isn’t. And unfortunately there continues to be misconceptions about what it is. So we hope people will come and see it.
JP: I think the fear in the community – and I think it’s well founded is that this will foment an increase in antisemitism. Can you understand that concern?
Khan: Absolutely. I personally and any member of our team who’s talked to folks about this has said that we unequivocally share the concern about antisemitism in Canada today. That is part of our mandate. And we will continue to do that work and we can also share these stories of Palestinian Canadians – you know, telling the story of one community’s human rights violation in no way should negate or minimize the experience of another community. That’s what this museum was designed to do….designed to build understanding of shared humanity and that’s what we believe we’re doing responsibly.
JP: Just before I began this interview, I was taken (down to the fourth floor; the Nakba exhibit is on the fifth floor) to see the gallery of other human rights violations. I’m not sure what it’s called. (It’s where there is a ) recitation of various human rights violations, including what happened in 1947 and 1948 (in Palestine). They offer passing reference to the displacement of both Jewish and Palestinian refugees. Would you consider ever having an exhibit about the displacement of Jewish refugees from Arab lands in 1948 and subsequent years?
Khan: We would absolutely consider it and in fact have shared with leaders of the Jewish organizations months ago that yes, these are important stories that need to be told (and) invited them to work constructively with us on developing that content. Unfortunately we didn’t really receive much response.
JP: How long is this exhibit supposed to be on for?
Khan: So this exhibit right now we’re saying is a minimum of two years. That’s because it is an exhibit in a standing gallery and so it also depends on our updating of our other galleries and, you know, exhibits take a bit of time. This one is four years in the making and so we’ve just committed that it’ll be a minimum of two years and we’ll see where things go.
JP: There are a lot of other refugee situations in the world – (for instance) South Sudan, and just this morning I was saying to Isabelle that I received an email about the situation for people from Burundi in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
I didn’t realize that was a problem. I know that the Congo has had ongoing problems with displacement of populations. It it seems to me it’s not an unlimited number of stories like this you could tell, but there are a lot of others. How do you decide which ones take priority?
Khan: We’re often asked the question of how we decide, and it comes back to how this museum is designed. Each gallery is intended to tell a different story. It has an objective. So this exhibit, Palestine Uprooted, is in our Rights Today gallery. It’s to talk about global human rights issues. And we know that people want to better understand human rights of Palestinians. There’s no question. It’s being talked about, debated, discussed all over the world. And so we’re being responsive there to that need. And we know that Palestinian experiences were under represented in our galleries and have heard that for years. To your point though that there are other stories – the design of this museum is that you ought to be able to feel something, understand something about the forced displacement of one community and apply it to another. So now this story stands along the forced displacement of the Rwanda people, indigenous peoples, Ukrainian people, the Igbo people. You’ve named a number of others that we do need to develop content on over time, but it’s done depending on what gallery it is, what we are trying to invoke…because we’ll never be the encyclopedia of all human rights atrocities in the world. That’s actually why we’re called the Canadian Museum for Human Rights rather than the Canadian Museum of Human Rights.
We’re here to to develop an understanding through the stories that will impact people.
JP: Okay. I want to ask a politically loaded question.
Khan: Okay.
JP: The Jewish population of Canada is at best 450,000. In that range, Jews don’t have the political impact that they used to. At most, there are 12 to 16 ridings where the Jewish vote can make a difference. The Muslim population has grown substantially. It has a much larger political impact. Did that factor in to this exhibit being mounted in any way?
Khan: Absolutely not.
JP: So, I’ll ask the question that I asked the curator of the exhibit. Where did the impetus for this come from? Did it come from Palestinian Canadians?
Khan: This exhibit came from a recognition, our decision. I hold responsibility ultimately for the decisions made by my team. It was made based on the recognition that Palestinian experiences were under represented in this museum. We absolutely heard from the Palestinian community organizations in Canada and had heard for many years that their stories were underrepresented. Ultimately, the decision was ours. And as we look at this gallery and updating our content, this is ‘rights today’ – global human rights. We know that the world is talking about Palestinian human rights and the stories of Palestinian Canadians naturally belong in our collective memory alongside many other stories that are told here.
JP: There was one particular aspect on one of the panels when I was sent a preview this morning and it referred to the Palestinian uprising from 2000 to 2005 which led to a lot of Israeli deaths that we generally refer to as the Intifada. There’s no mention of Israeli deaths on that panel. Would you agree that might have been an oversight?
Khan: I mean I know that there the factual point is absolutely accurate. The decisions on the curation of the exhibit are not ones that I make, but certainly if that is a concern that we will look at.
