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U.S. military expert John Spencer to speak in Winnipeg Sept. 11… argues Israel isn’t committing genocide in Gaza

(Canadian Jewish News Sept. 10, 2024) Maj. (Ret.) John Spencer is an American army veteran who heads the Modern War Institute at the U.S. military’s prestigious West Point Academy in New York State. His books and courses about fighting historic urban and tunnel wars have been widely quoted—he’s even interviewed Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu—who name-dropped the former combat officer’s research during his speech to Congress in July. The Israel Defence Forces like Spencer’s work so much that they’ve brought the Iraq veteran with them three times inside some of the captured Hamas tunnels under Gaza.

Ahead of two speaking engagements in Canada this week—in Winnipeg on Sept. 11 and Toronto on Sept. 12 —Spencer joined The CJN Daily podcast to share his eyewitness accounts of three research tours with the IDF inside the terrorists’ tunnels. Spencer explains why the Philadelphi corridor and 100 tunnels between Egypt and Gaza are what’s holding up a ceasefire deal that some believe could free the hostages.

Although Spencer wasn’t present 10 days ago when the IDF discovered the bodies of six executed hostages under Rafah, he understands why the entrance to that tunnel was actually hidden in the bedroom of a Palestinian child’s room in Gaza. Despite the latest heinous war crime that has rocked Israel and people around the world, Spencer feels Israel is still winning the war against Hamas.

The CJN: Readers may not have been following your prolific writings about what’s been happening in Israel since Oct. 7, but they may have seen when Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu name-dropped you in his speech to Congress. Can you just give our listeners a bit of background on what role, if any, you are playing officially or unofficially advising the Israeli government in this war? 

Spencer: Sure. So I’m playing absolutely no official or unofficial role, but my research and my writings have been used significantly to fight the disinformation. I have done multiple visits to Israel and three visits into Gaza with the IDF since Oct. 7, which has informed my writing and research, but no official or unofficial role. 

My research has been, including by the prime minister, many, many times, used to fight the disinformation about what the IDF are actually doing in Gaza to pursue the political objectives provided by the government for the war against Hamas. 

The CJN: We’re interviewing you just a few days after the bodies of the six Israeli executed hostages were discovered in a 20-metre deep tunnel under Rafah. What can you tell us about this particular tunnel, and what is significant about it?

Spencer: There’s a lot of unknowns about it, but we know that it was in conjunction to the IDF recent discovery of a living hostage. Nobody knew that in those targeted operations, because intelligence drives operations. Israel was conducting this operation in the Rafah area, successfully retrieving the live hostage in a tunnel, but without knowing nearby Hamas saw and heard the IDF and then entered another tunnel without the IDF’s knowledge, basically in very close proximity. And because of that IDF operation, I believe that Hamas entered their deep tunnel that they were holding the hostages for all their reasons that are illegal and not in accordance with the law of war, and brutally murdered each one of those six hostages. Then we saw the release of the videos that were very recently filmed. 

We don’t know if that was filmed in the tunnel, but we do know where the bodies were found was in this 20-metre deep tunnel in Rafah, which does pain a lot of people because of the different delays in the Rafah operation to basically search and clear the areas in which now where this all occurred, where they were later discovered through the IDF operation and brought home, finally to their families. 

The CJN: You’ve been in the tunnels. Tell us what you saw. Where did you go? 

Spencer:  My first visit (was) in December.  I actually was taken to the massive tunnel that was discovered outside of the Erez humanitarian zone. So this is a two-and-a-half mile tunnel that went a hundred feet underground. It was a massive invasion tunnel that you could drive trucks through, that had advanced wiring, ventilation, power, telecommunications. It was a multimillion-dollar tunnel that went right up to the Israeli-Gaza wall. It wasn’t used on Oct. 7, but the discovery is just massive. And then it went all the way back into the Gaza urban areas and had many branches. For me as somebody who studies underground warfare, just the sophistication of this and the realization that this is just one of hundreds of massive tunnels that they have found. And the realization of this underground world that Hamas built.

I got to tour this one, but it was also a realization of the 400-plus miles of tunnels in Gaza, costing billions of dollars, unmeasurable amounts of concrete and steel to build this infrastructure underground for the sole purpose of terror. No civilians are allowed in this. 

When I went back in February, I went with the IDF, the 98th division, into Khan Younis.

It was really going through all they’re doing to protect civilians, which I’m sure we’ll talk about, but also just how hard it is to find the tunnels. One of the places I went with the division commander was where they had had intelligence that there was a tunnel, but you just couldn’t see it while standing on the surface. And actually they were doing their procedures to drill and look for the tunnel that was really connecting to a mosque and was coming out of a mosque.

And they found that tunnel. I was basically standing on top of an enemy tunnel that was deep underground. When I went back in July 2024, I went into the Netzarim corridor with the IDF. This area where they’re creating a corridor, not just a road, from Israel all the way to the Mediterranean through Gaza, to create this security zone.

I had this realization and saw on the maps how many tunnels were just in the corridor. You can’t take a step in Gaza without actually feeling and having some belief that there’s a tunnel underneath you. 

Now, I also learned through these different visits from December, February, and July that there are different types of tunnels in Gaza.  As you were wrestling with, well, how many tunnels, how many tunnels has the IDF destroyed, is that there are levels of tunnels: from strategic ones, like that one I was in December that is for large movements or there are ones that actually connect northern Gaza to southern Gaza, which most people didn’t know. They’re in the Netzarim corridor. This is in the area of the Wadi Gaza, which is this river basin that splits northern Gaza and southern Gaza. It used to be a river, but it isn’t anymore. They’ve discovered over a mile-long, two-mile-long tunnels that go underneath that river basin. So something they just didn’t think was possible. So you can basically enter northern Gaza, the very tip of Gaza and come out in Rafah basically in a tunnel.

And those are strategic tunnels. But there are also little tactical tunnels that go from one building to another. 

There are tunnels that are used for command and control, like in Khan Younis they found luxury tunnels for the leadership of Hamas, with air conditioners and ceilings and, you know, kitchens and barracks. The IDF is then making a decision on which ones are critical to military capabilities that have to be destroyed. Can you ever really destroy all these? That’s some of what I’ve learned. 

The CJN: What are the challenges for the IDF in this kind of warfare that we wouldn’t know about from, let’s say,the equipment that doesn’t work, that would work above ground? 

Spencer: So this is getting into the classes I teach in our urban warfare operations course. Underground, people think it’s just the extension of the surface. You have something like a building or something, you have an underground. 

The CJN: Yeah, well we’re used to subway tunnels where the Wi-Fi works, right? 

Spencer: Yes. When you enter the underground, it’s more like going underwater. You can’t breathe without assistance underground and all the contaminants that are underground. It’s very dangerous to just breathe. You can’t see. For military personnel, none of your night vision goggles work, because usually night vision relies on ambient light. And this is a “no light” area.

You can’t communicate because most communication equipment relies on line-of-sight or satellites. So you can’t communicate underground. You can’t navigate. GPS, all of that doesn’t work. You can’t even shoot your weapons because of the concussion of your weapon. So you have to have all specialized equipment designed only for the underground.

Now, unique to Israel, and this is why I’ve been studying Israel for years, is they developed a special unit, the Yahalom, it’s their basic version of a tunnel rats, an entire brigade of special forces engineers who try to develop the equipment, all the drones and robots and dogs and everything that can operate underground, but also the equipment for the soldiers, the tactics. They have the biggest world force that has been dedicated to being able to operate underground and they have been used heavily in Gaza. I also came to the quick realization that yes, you have this specialized unit, soldiers, equipment, everything, but it’s nowhere near the amount that you will need for the size of the tunnels in Gaza. 

The CJN: Okay. And you were mentioning the fact that the IDF is being pilloried for not being humanitarian enough in its military operations and you’ve studied war in tunnels as well in other countries and you’ve been deployed yourself. Why do you feel that the world is not giving Israel a fair shake in terms of how it’s doing this war against civilians? 

Spencer: Well, at the macro level, it seems for Israel, Gaza is where the truth dies. The accusation that Israel has been disproportionate, indiscriminate, excessive, or starving the population. While none of those are true, there’s actually a counterfactual huge body of evidence, actually real and physical. Like the “starvation”. I went to the Netzarim corridor, saw where the (U.S. humanitarian) pier used to be, and there were just mountains, a whole field of humanitarian aid that just hadn’t been picked up. But from the actual execution of war, like you said, for the IDF, there’s no comparison. So the IDF was being compared to other operations where just this tunnel challenge of being able to find and operate with an entire world underneath the urban areas.

Hamas built this world underneath their civilians for the sole purpose of using everything on the surface to cause [criticism from] the international community. the destruction, the civilian casualties, everything, but all these lies about being disproportionate, proportionality–nobody’s faced this challenge in modern history. No military has. 

And then the other thing, which is what the prime minister and other Israeli officials or government use, which is backed up by data, is that in this execution of this war against Hamas, a defender who’s had 15 years to prepare for the attack of the IDF, Israel has done more and has implemented more civilian harm-mitigation measures than any military in the history of war, to include the U. S., Canada, the coalitions, to prevent civilian casualties and destruction. Like evacuating cities, like dropping [leaflets], the use of daily pauses, the use of certain munitions. There’s a long list that I go through. There’s actually over 10 civilian harm-mitigation measures that Israel has implemented, some that have never been created before in the history of war, like tracking civilian populations with their cell phones on or off and then restricting them. This is what I saw in Khan Younis, restricting the IDF operations because of that overriding aspect of preventing civilian harm, trying to get the civilians out of harm’s way, even though Egypt, which owns a lot of the destruction, the civilian casualties, and [took in] not a single refugee. So even that aspect of fighting a war against a military who’s trying to get their civilians killed without a complete area to move civilians to, into the Sinai, which would be really realistic. So the idea of how to find a way to create a safer zone within Gaza while still moving against Hamas.

The CJN:  I know that a lot of people have criticized your view saying, ‘Well, it’s hard for them to be humanitarian when they’re trapped, or their cell phones aren’t working’. But we don’t have to talk about that now, I just wanted to raise the point that some people wouldn’t agree. 

I want to talk about what the challenges are for Hamas in these tunnels. You said Israel can’t see, some of their stuff doesn’t work. But in terms of Hamas and the soldiers that are living down there, I read somewhere recently that there’s sort of an operations manual that was recently discovered that they have to switch them out, because they can’t be in the dark. It’s bad for their mental health. What do you know about the psychological and physical challenges for Hamas [and the hostages and the IDF] to stay down there?

Spencer: Well, so it’s being sensory deprived basically. So when you enter a tunnel, you’re being sensory deprived. And matter of fact, not all soldiers can operate underground. You get things like vertigo, you get claustrophobia.  Just for the breathing, you start to get breathing problems, right? Because even if you have ventilation, which many of these [tunnels] do, there’s still immense amounts of contaminants, from going to the bathroom down there. It’s foreign to the human body. So all of those start to come into place. You can’t spend your life underground without ever coming to the surface. They rotate them because of that psychological impact of being sensory deprived, the contaminants in the air, all really human functions that you’re dealing with down there. You can lose a sense of time.

We kind of know that you kind of need vitamin D every once in a while, so you need the sunlight. So there’s a whole bunch of reasons why it’s really bad. For me, it reckons the understanding that the hostages have been held, many of them—although some of them have been held in civilian apartments and doctors’ apartments and things like that—are being held in this place that’s really unhealthy, inhumane, and unsanitary for humans to live in.

For Hamas, which I don’t really care about, yeah, it’s bad for them to stay underground for a long time. And if they’re rotated, it may help with that. 

The CJN: In terms of where (Hamas leader) Yahya Sinwar is, does anyone know if there is any evidence that he’s still in a tunnel somewhere? 

Spencer: I consult open source intelligence, I do only unclassified. There is, I guess, direct evidence. I think from all rational, reasonable analysis that is the belief that he’s there and what he would lose if he left just from a war objective stance. Just for the fact that Israel was able to take out Mohammed Deif, who is considered like the ghost of Hamas, the original founder of Hamas’s military. I think it’s highly likely that Israel, to include all of the intelligence organizations, have a really good idea of where he’s at in Gaza, but that he has surrounded himself with hostages and that he’s likely surrounded himself with tens of thousands of Palestinians in the areas in which Israel has had to create the safer zones that Hamas has since day one used for their advantages to include firing rockets from within. Mohammed Deif was within a stone’s throw of the humanitarian zone.

So yes, I believe that Israel has a really good idea of the general area. Although it’s a small area, right? Gaza, the Gaza Strip, is 25 miles long, seven to five miles wide in its longest area. It’s still two million people for one person to hide. There’s rumours of him dressing up like a woman, things like that, to hide and move within the tunnels.

There’s one video of him and his family, which is interesting because it’s the only civilians ever allowed in the tunnels, moving through the tunnels of Khan Younis back in the beginning of the war. I think he’s there. I think he is mostly underground for most of the time, like a rat, but that he’s also within this area of hundreds of thousands of civilians. It would be really hard to know exactly where he’s at.

The CJN: Your position is Israel actually winning this war? Because you’ve said yes and, and I’d like to explore that a bit. 

Spencer:  I wrote a Foreign Affairs article countering actually four major articles that have been published on ‘Israel isn’t winning. Israel is actually creating more terrorists than it’s killing’. All of these wrong frameworks.

Israel absolutely is winning its war against Hamas in Gaza, because I taught strategy at West Point. Wars have a start, they have an end. They have political goals, which can change, although Israel hasn’t changed its three primary goals for the war against Hamas. Those are: number one, return the hostages. Number two, destroy Hamas, its political and military power in the Gaza Strip. And number three, secure the borders. 

There’s different wording for them, but those are the three goals. And Israel is absolutely [winning] all three of those.  Especially with the hostages.  They brought home over half the hostages to include over a hundred living hostages. But there is the myth that Israel could have brought them home a different way. It could have been negotiated in the beginning.

It could have done it without military force. It’s just not reality. 

And I go through that in this Foreign Affairs article, that it’s been a combination of diplomatic, military, and other forms of national power that have brought over half the hostages home.

The CJN:  So is Israel’s border with Gaza safer now? We’re not even talking about Hezbollah because that’s a whole other thing, and same with the West Bank, we don’t have time. How is Israel’s border safer today than on Oct. 7?

Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. The whole security framework that was before Oct. 7th will not ever happen again. The reliance on only technologies, minimal forces, the wall, everything. So Israel is building a buffer zone of up to a kilometer from where the wall was. It’s created more corridors through Gaza, which will allow it to project power. It’s secured, which is vital, the southern border between Gaza and Egypt and eliminated the super highway that we now know was there for underground smuggling of weapons, men, weapons, equipment, financing, everything. It sealed that. So just from an overall sense of securing southern Israel from Gaza and the threats of Gaza, it’s massive engineering projects, both creating the buffer zone all the way around, eliminating all the tunnels that were there, creating the Netzarim corridor. There’s new entry points into Gaza that will allow for this new security framework to be in place.

The CJN: You mentioned the Netzarim corridor, so let’s talk about it before we end. Our listeners may have started to hear the words Philadelphi corridor as part of the reason for the holdup [in any ceasefire deal] and the latest huge controversy out of Israel this past week between the government. You mentioned where it is. It’s the border between Gaza and Egypt, which Israel withdrew from in its agreement to disengage from Gaza years ago. And then they’ve reoccupied it because Egypt was allowing, as you said, all this smuggling to go through. And that’s been a big flashpoint.

Why is that so important now in what happens next? 

Spencer: In order to destroy Hamas, which is not the idea of Hamas, but the military power and the political power of Hamas, what Israel has done along this border between Gaza and Egypt, which is only like an eight-to-10-mile stretch of land, but they have moved in, secured it and cut off the bloodline to Hamas, which is in wars actually unique because even in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, that ability for the enemy to be resupplied, to have sanctuary, to get new stuff in,  the U.S. military really struggled with it.  But Israel has been able to actually cut off Hamas now because of the Philadelphi corridor, from all of that resupply of rockets, everything, even financing. Now the contention is how long does Israel need to hold that piece of ground? Does it always need to have forces there, physically there, securing it? I personally believe not so. 

The Israel-Gaza wall, the border wall between Israel and Gaza actually worked. It has a very deep subterranean aspect to it with a bunch of advanced sensors. Egypt was talking about that before it was actually discovered that there’s over a hundred massive tunnels going between Egypt and Gaza to include ones you can drive giant trucks through. Egypt was talking about putting up that wall.  Eventually, I think there will be a new, basically an Israeli-style wall there that will prevent that subterranean traffic because on the surface, you can use advanced technologies, although you don’t rely only on that. Egypt did send a division of armour, basically an armoured brigade to the border, early in the war, and put up a new wall because they also didn’t want anybody coming across their border. 

Why is this such a big issue for Hamas? Why is Hamas saying ‘You will not get any hostages back unless you leave the Philadelphi corridor’? Because it’s their vital aspect of surviving. All they have to do to win this war is survive.

They have ideas on how to do that.  They’re grasping for this corridor. This highway for them is very vital to their survival and to be able to bring more weapons in, to be able to get out, all these things. But they also have ideas to give up political power. I call this the Hezbollah model. Hamas has put forward a plan to bring in some technocrats to govern Gaza, but they maintain military power. Sounds a lot like Hezbollah in Lebanon, although Hezbollah is also part of the government. So they’re grasping at trying to survive the war and basically win. And Israel has said that’s not going to happen. We’re going to demilitarize the strip. We’re going to actually start de-radicalization programs. We’re going to secure the entire border around so that Hamas can’t survive.

The CJN: How long is this going to take and can Israel actually win or this is going to happen again? 

Spencer: So I got this [question] actually in October. How long will this take? How long will it take to clear the urban areas of Hamas’s military capabilities, tunnels, infrastructure? I mean, they found deep buried weapons manufacturing plants and just nobody knew that they were there, that it was possible to do that.

I always say, it isn’t how much time it will take, but how much time do they have? 

Even General Dwight Eisenhower, after World War II said it would take 50 years to re-educate the Nazis. And if you ever thought we were going to give them the ability to wage war again, you were crazy. How long will it take to demilitarize the Gaza Strip? A very long time.

How long will it take to de-radicalize Hamas? But there is a path, right? It is up to Israel. 

Israel is winning, but it’s up to Israel as a democratic country. It’s up to Israel if it ultimately wins, because what is very common in war, is you have to bring in another power. You can demilitarize and you can degrade Hamas to where it’s this guerrilla force, which Israel is very close to doing. Hamas doesn’t have military capability. It’s a guerrilla force hiding in the shadows, governing from the shadows, using humanitarian aid as coercive power over the people. But Israel has to basically help put in a new power.  That will be the ultimate win, is that Hamas never rules again. 

You have to put in another power. There are many ways to do that. You have to start post-conflict operations like de-radicalization programs, reconstruction, and new governance, institutions, all this stuff, which is very common in war, but it will take a very, very long time. And Israel has to, for their survival, the Israeli people especially have to understand that basically.

The CJN: Canada stopped arms permits to Israel back in January. Does that even make a difference to Israel? Are they being hurt by this?

Spencer: I’m sure it absolutely is a problem. It might not be what Canada is providing, it’s the international context that sends a signal to other allies. Israel’s strength is its allies in all wars. So when one ally of Israel says, ‘Because of this, because of these lies, this misinformation, we’re not going to support you with this small item’, which might not have an immediate impact, but globally, you know, in the international context, in the multi-international allies that is Israel’s strength, including in the region Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, it matters. So it’s a horrible signal to send to the world and to send to Israel. 

The CJN: And then Britain just did it too. 

Spencer: Yeah, Britain did it too.  It’s very bad because it’s baseless. It’s based on disinformation. It’s based on things like 40,000 Palestinians killed in Gaza, which is not true. It’s a lie. Where does the number come from? What does it mean? Because now there’s this effect-based ideology, kind of like we see with Canada, Britain, and others, they’re using the data on how many people have died. Look how much destruction. There was another way.

The huge myth of this war is that there was another way to bring the hostages home, remove Hamas from power so it can’t do another Oct. 7. Because since Oct. 7, Hamas has publicly said that’s their goal. They will do this as many times as it takes to achieve our goal. The idea that there was another way. And it’s actually a fallacy.

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One of Canadian and American television’s greatest producers of all time: Perry Rosemond – a true North End boy, who never forgot his Winnipeg roots

Introduction by BERNIE BELLAN Perry Rosemond was a well- known television producer who grew up in the North End of Winnipeg before moving to Toronto and establishing himself as one of Canadian television’s brightest talents in the 1960s, later to go on to even greater success in the US before returning to Canada in the 1980s.

Rosemond passed away in Toronto on August 20 at the age of 89.

In August 2020, Gerry Posner interviewed Rosemond for the Jewish Radio Hour. I contacted Rochelle Zucker, the longtime producer of that show, to see whether she could send me an audio file of that interview – which she was able to do. Following is a complete transcript of the often hilarious interview Gerry did with Perry Rosemond:

Gerry Posner: Welcome to the Jewish Hour radio show. This is Gerry Posner, and I’m delighted to be back on the radio once again with a guest whom I believe you will find interesting and informative. So today I feel very fortunate to have on the show a real Winnipeg legend, a man who has made his way in the world of the arts, and that is no small achievement. He has been a big name in the field of entertainment as a writer, a director, a producer for many years. I speak of Perry Rosemond. Perry, welcome to the Jewish Hour radio show.

Rosemond: Thank you, Ger.

Posner: I imagine you might have even listened to this show when you were a youngster.

Rosemond: Well, I have to tell you that my grandmother would call us every Sunday when I was about seven years of age, and she would say, “Turn on the French station at 1 o’clock and you’ll hear a very beautiful program.” And that was Noah Whitman’s show. And here I am, a mere 73 years later, on the show. Remarkable.

Posner: Well, I’m glad you made it. Tell me something, Perry. Who were your parents?

Rosemond: My parents were Max and Mona Rosemond, two of the most beautiful-looking people on the face of the earth, and where is genetics when you need it? But we lived in my grandmother’s house. You called it your grandmother’s house, even though there was a grandfather there. But she ruled the roost. And there were 14 of us in a house that wasn’t that big. But my dad was a clothing designer. My mother was a showroom model. And my mother wore a girdle, but she was never fat. And I later learned in life that the reason she wore the girdle was so that when the buyers in the showroom pinched her, it didn’t hurt as much. Those were my parents.

Posner: Well, where was the house that you grew up in?

Rosemond: The house I grew up in was at the corner of Manitoba and Andrews in North Winnipeg.

Posner: So you spent quite a few years there.

Rosemond: Oh, yes. I spent quite a few years there, but we moved. My parents were sort of upwardly mobile, and we moved from Andrews and Manitoba to Lansdowne Avenue. That was an improvement. Oh, my goodness. I had my own room.

Posner: Were there more of you than just Perry? I mean, were there siblings?

Rosemond: No, there was just me. But I was surrounded by cousins who were as close as brothers and sisters, really. And we stayed close for our entire lives. So there was a huge, huge sense of family at 193 Andrews.

Posner: Who would these cousins be?

Rosemond: My cousin Sonny and my cousin Mickey.

Posner: Both Rosemonds?

Rosemond: No, they were on my mother’s side.

Posner: What was her (maiden) name?

Rosemond: Magid.

Posner: MAGGOT. Really? Okay.

Rosemond: And Sonny and Mickey were four years older than me and exploited me at every opportunity. My uncle Dave Rosemond used to manage the Beacon Theater in Winnipeg.

Posner: In the North End.

Rosemond: Yes. And they would go to the Beacon Theater with me and get in for free because of me and still take my 10 cents that my mother gave me for the popcorn. So their mission in life was to exploit Perry Rosemond.

Posner: And you remember it, too.

Rosemond: I do indeed. I do indeed.

Posner: So you went to school where?

Rosemond: William Whyte School.

Posner: And then did you go to (St. Johns) Tech?

Rosemond: I went to Aberdeen and then to Tech. And at William Whyte School, I would go to sleep at night and pray to wake up Ukrainian so that the daily beatings would stop. But it was 50% Ukrainian and 50% Jewish.

Posner: Yeah, you knew what it was like to be a Jew.

Rosemond: Absolutely.

Posner: Did you do any studying in Hebrew or Yiddish?

Rosemond : I did. I went to Hebrew school. And in those days, I sounded like Georgie Jessel, for God’s sakes. In those days, I can’t believe I said that. If you’re going to cut anything, cut “in those days.” Please, Ger, do me a favor. But in those days, the instructors were measured by how much pain they could inflict on the students.

Posner: And you had a bit of that.

Rosemond: A bit of that. I was once thrown against a radiator by Mar Gross, and I still bear the pains to this day.

Posner: But you weren’t a product of Cantor Brownstone’s choir.

Rosemond: No, that was Alan Blye, and he was my friend and my roommate when I moved to Toronto to become an actor.

Posner: Who were some of your buddies in Winnipeg growing up? I guess Blye was one of them.

Rosemond: Blye was very close. Bugsy Lavich was very close, very close, and probably the leading bookmaker of his generation.

Posner: He’s well-known.

Rosemond: Indeed, and remains today my closest and dearest friend. And whenever I think about Bernie, I say to myself, how advantageous is it to have a friend who is the smartest human being in the world? I mean, if I need to know anything, he knows it. He knows it.

Posner: Did you go to university in Winnipeg at all?

Rosemond: I went to the University of Manitoba, and that’s where I got the bug to go into theater because I was Troilus in “Troilus and Cressida.” I was Cassius in “Julius Caesar,” and I was hopeless in the classroom. But it just took me by storm. It really did. And I ended up going to Toronto.

Posner: Well, just hold on a second. Were you not involved in some fashion in the creation of the MTC, the Manitoba Theatre Centre, in its very early days – with John Hirsch?

Rosemond: I was a founding member of the Manitoba Theatre Centre with Gordon Pinsent and Len Cariou – who went on to win a Tony, and Donnelly Rhodes, who went on to be a terrific influence in theatre in Canada. And I was one of the founding members. And you know what was strange, Gerry, is that I thought, boy, if this guy John Hirsch is in Winnipeg, what must they be like in New York or the West End in England? And I never met his match. But boy, could he intimidate me. I was in a play, “Death of a Salesman.” I was playing Bernard, and he came up to me and he said, “Mr. Rosemond, don’t you think you ought to reconsider your interpretation of that lawyer you’re playing?” And it would have been a fair note, except it was given to me after dress rehearsal. I’ve never seen a man customize performance the way he did — everybody got exactly what they needed. He was beyond brilliant. He went to his demise as my mentor and my idol and my friend.

Posner: So he was your introduction to the world of arts.

Rosemond: Absolutely. And strangely enough, we hooked up later when — oh, many, many years later — when he was head of drama at CBC, and he brought me back from Los Angeles to create the program “King of Kensington.”

Al Waxman as the “King of Kensington:

Posner: When you made that decision somewhere in the ’50s, you’re in your, I guess, 20s, and you make a decision, “I’m going to move to Toronto, and I’m going to go into the arts as a career.” Your parents must have looked at you like you were out of your head.

Rosemond: Do you know, Gerry, it was funny, because beyond the initial beating about the head and shoulders that my father laid on me, they never stopped supporting me. They stood by me, and I can’t tell you how grateful I am for that. 100% support. Let me chart my own course.

Posner: But the odds were stacked against you. Come on.

Rosemond: Oh, tell me about it. I mean, it was about 15 minutes before I realized I wasn’t a very good television actor. I remember sitting in the basement of 42 Bedford Road in Toronto with Gordon Pinsent, who was my other roommate, with Alan Blye, and we were watching a guy who stole a part from me. He was playing the part I was born to play. And I watched it for about 10 minutes, and I said, “You know what, Gordon? He’s better than I would have been.” And Gordon said, “Perry, get out of acting. You don’t have the ego for it.” And I’d been sneaking in and out of control rooms all this time, Gerry. So I got bitten by the behind the scenes. And that’s where I headed.

Posner: So you actually gave up the acting. You went into production.

Rosemond: Exactly, exactly.

Posner: Well, maybe you were fortunate that that happened early on in the career. In your career, as I gather, you’ve touched the lives of some pretty big names. Tell me if I’m wrong here. Dick Van Dyke?

Rosemond: Yes. Len Cariou, Cloris Leachman, Julie Andrews, Steve Martin, Billy Crystal, Donnie and Marie, Johnny Cash, and the list goes on.

Posner: How does this all come about?

Rosemond: Oh, Johnny Cash. That was the best time of my life. Two years in Nashville. I’ll tell you how it came about. Johnny wanted documentary elements in his variety show, and I had trained in both in Canada. So I wasn’t the best documentary filmmaker, and I wasn’t the best comedy variety producer, but the fact that I could do both got me the job directing his show. And when they introduced me to him — it was during the hippie era, so I had the long hair and the whole nine yards.

Posner You weren’t exactly a feature presenter. You didn’t present well.

Rosemond: No, I didn’t present well because Johnny said, “Where are you going to film this week?” And I said, “I’m going to Hazard, Kentucky to film coal miners.” And Johnny said, “Perry, if you go into Hazard, Kentucky on a Saturday night with that long hair and them bell-bottoms, they’re going to kill you.” So this whole Hollywood invasion of middle America was absolutely hysterical. But the show was a big hit.

Posner: Give me the career path. You came here (Toronto) in the ’50s.

Rosemond: OK, I came here in the ’50s, late ’50s, as an actor. Right. Shared a room with Gordon Pinsent and Alan Blye. Right. We were very competitive, but Alan really won because he had a role on a continuing starring role on one of the big variety shows. And if I’m not mistaken, he actually declared Gordon Pinsent and me as dependents on his 1959 tax form. So he definitely was the more successful of the group. Then I went back to Winnipeg in 1960, and I applied as a production assistant. And there were no openings, but there were producer-directors that had quit, and so they gave me a job as a producer-director.

A young Perry Rosemond at the controls

Posner: So I get this is at CBC in Winnipeg, correct?

Rosemond So I got 4,200 bucks for the year, and I did Metro News and a talk show, and then I did a show called “Red River Jamboree,” which was fully sponsored by Kraft Foods, always in the top ten. And, Ger, I’ve been going downhill ever since.

Posner Well, I wouldn’t say that. I don’t know hardly that, based on what I’ve read about you. I’d say you’re climbing the ladder, and you’ve climbed to the top. And then, so how long were you back in Winnipeg?

Rosemond: I was back in Winnipeg until ’63. What happened was I was doing this variety show and I looked eastward and the third best variety producer at CBC in Toronto was a guy by the name of Norman Jewison. And so I thought, oh, my God, I’m never going to get to Toronto, which was Mecca, as a variety producer. So I went to my supervisor and said, “Look, I want to do children’s programming. My heart is with the children.” And so I got transferred to the children’s department in Winnipeg, took two kinescopes under my arm and headed to Toronto, and got a transfer to children’s programming in ’63. ’63 to ’68 Toronto, ’68 to ’85 Los Angeles.

Posner: But what were you doing in LA?

Rosemond: Well, I came out of the Cash show and did Bill Cosby’s show. You might not have heard of him. He hasn’t been in the news much these days. But I did Bill Cosby’s variety show, and from then, Donnie and Marie (then) a situation comedy called “Good Times.” But what happened is I had three shows going in Canada at the same time. I had “Bizarre” on CTV. I had “Tom Jones” on Global TV, and I had “King of Kensington” on CBC. So I thought, well, what am I doing in America?

Posner: So back you came to Canada?

Rosemond: Back to Canada, where I’ve been since ’85.

Posner: Now, in those years, those five years that you alluded to, that you were doing work in children’s programming, you were pretty involved, from what I gather. You did some work on “Children of the World?”

Rosemond: Yeah, that’s probably something of which I’m most proud. It was a series on children in developing nations, and it drew an audience of over 600 million people just in audio-visual distribution.

Posner: Wow. And if I had to say, what’s the number one thing you’ve accomplished? That would be it?

Rosemond: That would be it.

Posner: Really?

Rosemond: Absolutely.

Posner: I understand it won (something called the Japan Prize). I mean, I hadn’t heard of this, but I gather it’s pretty significant. The Japan Prize is (for) the best children’s program.

Rosemond: That’s correct.

Posner: So, you know, that’s saying something. That’s a long way from the North End.

Rosemond: Well, you know what we say. They say, how come there’s so many great people from the North End? And my answer is always the same. It’s a deep and abiding desire to get the heck out of the North End.

Posner: Now, I think, correct me here, in some fashion, not only did you do this program that won this prize, “Children of the World.” But you also were connected, and maybe you can tell me how, to “Mr. Dressup” and “The Friendly Giant?”

“The Friendly Giant”
“Mr. Dressup”

Rosemond: That’s right. I was head of children’s programming for a period of time and worked with Mr. Dressup and the Friendly Giant. Friendly Giant, I remember once being in a room with him, and I was giving him some notes, and he turned around and he walked away from me. I thought, well, that’s rude. And then I looked, and a group of schoolchildren had come into the studio. And he was deathly afraid of being seen as anything but a giant. Which he was, by the way. He was a gigantic personality.

Posner: Well, you were the executive producer of those shows, right?

Rosemond: Correct, correct, yeah.

Posner: And in some way you got connected to Sesame Street, too?

Rosemond: That’s right. I was living in Los Angeles, and they asked if I would come back and Canadianize Sesame Street.

Posner Canadianized Sesame Street? I didn’t know there was a Canadianized version.

Rosemond: Well, what we did was we took out the Native American segments and the Spanish segments, and we substituted them with Native Canadian and French. And then gradually we took over and did our own version, a Canadian version of Sesame Street. Again, very gratifying. Back to Winnipeg to do it — that was my blackmail. I said, I’ll come back and do it if I can do it in Winnipeg, because I like the graphics artists in Winnipeg, and I felt I’d get a better product.

Posner: Okay, that’d be what, sometime in the ’80s?

Rosemond: That would have been earlier. That would have been in the ’70s.

Posner: Wow. Well, you kept up your links to Winnipeg.

Rosemond: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Posner: Now, so you’ve had children’s programming. And you also got into, I gather, documentary and public affairs.

Rosemond: Right, yes. “The Way It Is.”

Posner: “The Way It Is” was the Sunday Night flagship show. That was the big show on CBC Sunday night, wasn’t it?

Rosemond: That’s right. It was the big show on CBC Sunday night, and I worked with an executive producer called Ross McLean. I didn’t last too long on that, Gerry. I remember Ross had a very constructive way of winning arguments. We had one argument. And I can’t even remember what it was about, but he won it hands down by throwing a Coke can at my head. And I took a hike, and I never came back to “The Way It Is.”

Posner: That’s the way it was.

Rosemond: That’s the way it was, right.

Posner: You also did what you call profiles for CBC’s “Telescope,” with Oscar Peterson, Arthur Haley, Gordon Pinsent, Glenn Gould, Donald Sutherland. I mean, that was another big show.

Rosemond: Yeah, and that was my entrée to the United States because I became their man in America. And thus I did Donald Sutherland in Hollywood while snooping around for work and Eddie Albert from ‘”Green Acres” and all of the expatriate Canadians who were living in Los Angeles. And that gave me a foothold because I could look for work and still pay the rent. My Canadian qualifications counted for nothing in America. You were zero. Zero. And I was starting from scratch at age 30, and I had to have some kind of income to get things going.

Posner: And then somewhere along the line you got — you oversaw the production, I’m not sure exactly, of “Hockey Night in Canada.” I’m guessing you never even played the game.

Rosemond: I was on the third line of the Chicago Blackhawks in the miniature NHL, you know, and probably the worst ever third liner in the history of Manitoba’s miniature NHL hockey. But here’s the deal with that. When I wanted to come back to Canada, I couldn’t just come back as a freelancer because when they brought me in from America, I was the big American producer that they were bringing to Canada. If I was going to be in Canada, you know the deal, the expert’s always 100 miles from home.

Posner: That’s right.

Rosemond: So I had to have a foothold. So I had worked with Don Ohlmeyer Productions, and they were consulting to Hockey Night. And they wanted to take over Hockey Night. And Don suggested that I come up from America to put them in the hockey business, which I did. And I also started other shows for this company, Molestar Communications, which were more in the entertainment business and more to my liking, like the Juno Awards, I’d escape for a month or two, or a syndicated series called “Starting From Scratch,” which I shot in Montreal. So I would leave the administrative behind and jump back into the trenches whenever I could.

Posner: You know, it’s okay you didn’t play so well in the third line in miniature. You did a little better, I would say. Now, you mentioned David Steinberg. And you produced his show, CTV’s “David Steinberg Show?”

Rosemond: Yes, that’s right.

Posner: Did you even write for that show?

Rosemond: I wrote for it.

Posner: How many scripts would you have written for?

Rosemond: We did one season only, but we had an incredible guest list. David grew up a block away from me, and we knew each other forever. And I’ve done so much with David, and I admire him so much. And David attracted a huge guest list of John Voight and Ethel Merman and Milton Berle, and he also was able to bring out John Candy for his first show and Martin Short and Dave Thomas and Joe Flaherty and all of those people.

Posner: No, I don’t think David Steinberg’s memories of Winnipeg are as warm as yours are. They are kind of, you know. I’m quite surprised to hear you say that because I think in the beginning maybe, you know, when you were a young kid you hate where you came from. Maybe there was some of that. But now he cherishes it.

Rosemond: He does. I also had a lot of clout in being able to, if I may say so, book enormous talent because we had Marty Short and Andrea Martin, and I was able to book Howie Mandel, because I gave him his first shot in America on Norm Crosby’s “Comedy Shop.” And I got to tell you this really boring story, but I’ll try to make it quick.

Posner: Okay.

Rosemond: My partner and I on Norm Crosby’s Comedy Shop could veto any act that appeared on the show. So Howie’s manager was Saul Holliff’s nephew, and Saul was Johnny Cash’s manager, who was very good to me on “The Johnny Cash Show.” So he said, could you put my act on? And I said, send a tape. So he sent the tape of Howie, you know, with the faucet on the forehead and the diaper and God knows what else. And before we were 15 seconds into it, my partner Joe Sigmund raised his hand and he said, “I veto.” I said, “Joe, it’s Saul Holliff’s nephew’s act. We’ve got to put him on. Let’s tape him. We won’t use it.” And six months later, to make a long story even a little longer, Phil Kives from Winnipeg of K-Tel came to order a DVD from us. And he said, “make sure that you put on the DVD the kid with the diaper.”

Posner: Okay. You know, I’m just barely starting and we’ve got to finish this. Tell me, Perry.

Rosemond: Yeah.

Interviewer: What’s the story? Are you into retirement mode or you’re still going at it?

Rosemond: My dream is that it’s “ready camera.” I want Ingmar Bergman to shoot this, by the way. My dream is “ready camera one” and aneurysm, and in slow motion my head starts to descend to the console and I’m dead before I even hit it.

Posner: You’re still working. Still working. And I guess you still connect to Winnipeg.

Rosemond: Absolutely. I was there several times to do specials in Winnipeg, and I still would go back today, especially with the tax credits.

Posner: Perry, it’s a joy to have you. I tell you, we barely scratched the surface, and I appreciate your taking the time to come and do this.

Rosemond: Can I tell you, and I say this in all honesty, you are one terrific interviewer.

Posner: Well, thanks very much. I enjoy doing it.

Post script (added by Bernie Bellan): Some of the things that Gerry omitted from his interview were that Rosemond also produced the terrific documentary, “When Jews Were Funny,” which was named best Canadian Feature Film at the 2013 Toronto Film Festival.

As his obituary on the Benjamin’s Parrk Memoria Chapel website also notes: “In 2003, Perry was appointed a member of the Order of Canada, a national recognition for a career that entertained, educated, and made Canadians laugh.

“But Perry never measured his life by accolades, he measured it in smiles. He lived to spread laughter and joy. It was his way of making people feel seen and valued. He will be dearly missed and forever loved.”


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From a ‘pie in the sky’ idea to 2,400 young hockey players

Rahcel Wolfenson and Rich Hechter

By BERNIE BELLAN I didn’t used to cover sports for The Jewish Post & News except for the odd occasion.
For years we could count on the late, great Harvey Rosen to comb the waterfront, looking for any sports story that might have the least connection to anything Jewish. Harvey would even go into visiting teams’ locker rooms during Winnipeg Jets games and, if a player had a name that sounded Jewish, inquire whether that player might be Jewish.
Then, for a few years, we added well-known sports writer Scott Taylor to the mix. Scott offered quite a different perspective, looking for stories about athletes that went far behind the scenes to uncover details that other reporters might have missed.
With both Harvey and Scott gone from our pages, I’ve occasionally found myself filling the sports void. These days, however, I tend to wait for an interesting story to find me.
And that’s exactly what happened with Wheatland Hockey.
Recently, my neighbours Elliot and Linda Katz mentioned that they knew of a Jewish couple who had started a hockey development program in Winnipeg. The couple, Rich Hechter and Rachel Wolfenson, had apparently started Wheatland Hockey only about 16 months earlier.
I subsequently learned that, in that short time, more than 2,400 young hockey players had gone through Wheatland’s various programs.
That number got my attention.
So, I contacted Rachel and Rich to find out what they had created — and why.
It started with a gap
The idea for Wheatland began, as Rachel described it to me, as “this little pie in the sky idea that we were going to have a spring development program in the spring of 2025.”
They started with about 50 kids spread across three age groups.
Sixteen months later, Wheatland has grown into a broad hockey-development organization offering programs for players from U9 through U15, along with specialized programming, female hockey, spring and summer teams, events and high-performance opportunities.
But the numbers aren’t really the story.
The story is why they thought Wheatland needed to exist in the first place.
Rich and Rachel felt there was a gap between traditional minor hockey and the highly specialized — and often expensive — training programs available to elite players.
There were plenty of opportunities for kids to play hockey. But what about the player who needed to improve one particular part of their game? What about the U9 player whose parents had no idea what skills their child should be working on? What about the player who wasn’t an elite athlete but had the potential to become a much better hockey player with the right instruction?
That was the space they wanted Wheatland to occupy.
As Rachel explained it, some families come to Wheatland knowing exactly what their child needs.
“They might know that the kid’s gap is power skating,” she told me. “They might have a great shot and great stick handling, but they’re not strong skaters.”
Other families arrive with a much less specific question.
“They’re new U9 families,” Rachel said. “Their kids have been spat out of the Timbits world and into the U9 world and they don’t know what to focus on.”
That’s where Rich comes in.
‘Pedagogy on ice’
Rich brings an unusual background to hockey coaching.
He is currently taking a one-year sabbatical from his role as vice-principal of Brock Corydon School, the Winnipeg school often known as the only public school Hebrew bilingual program in North America. For many families in Winnipeg’s Jewish community, Brock Corydon is where they know Rich best.
Before becoming a vice-principal, he worked as a high school teacher and as a university professor in the Faculty of Education. He has also spent more than a decade coaching youth hockey.
This year, rather than stepping away from education, Rich is using his sabbatical as an opportunity to continue learning, writing, and growing as a coach and mentor while devoting more time to developing Wheatland Hockey.
That additional time will also allow Wheatland to extend its reach beyond Winnipeg through a new initiative called “Wheatland on the Road”.
Over the coming year, Rich will travel to rural Manitoba communities including Manitou, St. Laurent, Lundar, Steinbach and Elm Creek to lead coaching and mentoring sessions for local players and coaches.
The initiative reflects Wheatland’s belief that access to quality coaching should not depend on where a young player lives. It also gives Rich an opportunity to work directly with local hockey communities, sharing ideas and helping coaches develop their own approaches to teaching the game.
For Rich, education and hockey aren’t separate worlds.
Rachel described his approach as “pedagogy on ice.”
The idea is simple: coaching isn’t just about showing a young player how to execute a skill. It’s about understanding how that player learns, figuring out what they need, and creating an environment where they can improve.
That educational philosophy is evident in the way Wheatland approaches development.
Its programs focus on areas such as skating, puck control, shooting, passing and receiving, positional play, defensive skills, checking, hockey IQ and tactical understanding.
But the organization also talks openly about developing confidence, resilience and character.
The Wheatland philosophy is summed up on its website as building “skills, character and excellence — on and off the ice.”
And that distinction is important to Rich.
The objective isn’t simply to produce better hockey players.
It’s to help young people become better learners, teammates and competitors.
A Jewish leadership team in an unlikely business
There is also an irony at the heart of Wheatland’s success.
We are not exactly the people known for our sporting prowess, and none of the people leading Wheatland played in the NHL. Yet, the organization is run by Rachel and Rich, with Ryan Paul, Eleni Wener, Avi Walker and Dustin Roitelman in senior leadership roles.
That may be unusual in the hockey world, but it is also part of what makes Wheatland distinctive.
This is not a business built around former professional players leveraging on their own playing careers. It is being led by people who believe deeply in the values Wheatland has developed — and continues to develop.
They believe in teaching young people how to learn, how to work with others, how to persevere and how to contribute to their communities.
In that sense, Wheatland’s leadership team reflects the organization’s broader philosophy: hockey expertise matters, but so do education, mentorship, organization, empathy and a commitment to making the game more accessible.
The fact that this group has helped build a hockey organization serving thousands of young players from across Manitoba is, in its own way, pretty remarkable.
Making hockey and coaching accessible
Perhaps the most important word in Wheatland’s philosophy is accessibility.
“Accessibility is one of our guiding principles,” Rachel said. “We believe that all kids should have the opportunity to get on the ice, regardless of socioeconomic conditions.”
For Rich and Rachel, accessibility means more than making hockey available. They believe that good coaching should be accessible, too.
That commitment is reflected in Wheatland’s “Pay-What-You-Can” program, which helps ensure that financial circumstances do not prevent children and families from participating in quality hockey programming.
For Rachel and Rich, the program is one way of giving back to the broader community. They believe that hockey — and the opportunity to learn from good coaches — should be available to as many young people as possible, not limited only to families who can afford the full cost of specialized training.
That doesn’t mean Wheatland is trying to be everything to everyone.
Rather, the idea is that a family shouldn’t need to have an elite-level hockey player — or an elite-level hockey budget — to access good coaching.
The organization keeps its groups relatively small. A typical session might have four or five players, while a larger session could have as many as 20, with several coaches on the ice.
The result is that a player who shows up to a smaller session can end up receiving something approaching a semi-private lesson without the family having to pay a premium for that experience.
And, Rachel noted, if only a handful of players show up for a session, “they would get the benefit of a semi-private class for a very inexpensive cost.”
Building coaches, too
Wheatland’s emphasis on development doesn’t stop with the players.
The organization has also created a Junior Coach program, through which some of its younger participants have an opportunity to begin learning how to teach the game themselves.
Five of Wheatland’s junior coaches are under the age of 15.
That’s significant because it reflects another part of Rich and Rachel’s philosophy: hockey development isn’t simply about producing better players. It’s about creating people who can contribute to the hockey community.
The organization’s coaching staff also includes experienced coaches with backgrounds in player development, athletic development and hockey education.
The same philosophy is at the heart of Wheatland on the Road. By working with coaches in rural communities, Rich hopes to help build local coaching capacity so that players can continue benefiting from quality instruction long after his visit is over.
Hockey as a bridge between communities
One of Wheatland’s most memorable recent initiatives involved a visiting Israeli hockey club.
The visiting players took part in two on-ice sessions with Rich and Ryan. After changing out of their gear, the young players then visited Rich at Brock Corydon School, where they met with grade 5 and 6 students.
For the players from Israel, the experience offered more than additional hockey instruction. It gave them an opportunity to connect with Winnipeg students through a shared language — the language of hockey — while also learning about one another’s communities.
For Wheatland, the sessions demonstrated how hockey can create meaningful connections that extend well beyond the rink.
Rachel and Rich
While Rich is the face of Wheatland on the ice, Rachel’s role is largely behind the scenes.
A Senior Investment Advisor with TD Private Wealth Management, Rachel brings an entirely different skill set to the organization, overseeing operations and communications and helping ensure that families have a positive experience from the moment they register.
The division of responsibilities seems to work. Rachel brings the organizational perspective needed to turn an idea into an operation. Rich brings the educator’s perspective to player development.
The broader leadership team brings additional experience, energy and commitment to the values that guide Wheatland.
And somewhere along the way, that little “pie in the sky” idea became something considerably larger.
More than 2,400 kids have now gone through Wheatland’s programs in just 16 months.
That’s a lot of hockey players. But when I asked Rachel what she thought accounted for that kind of growth, her answer wasn’t really about hockey.
It was about giving families something they were looking for.
“We teach people first, we teach hockey second,” is the philosophy Rich and Rachel have adopted.
Perhaps that’s why Wheatland has grown so quickly.
Because for all the talk about hockey development, what they are really trying to develop is something bigger: young people who feel supported, challenged and capable of getting better.
And through initiatives such as the Pay-What-You-Can program, Wheatland on the Road and its work with visiting teams, Wheatland is also showing how hockey can be both accessible and a bridge between communities.
If the first 16 months are any indication, there are a lot of Winnipeg families — and perhaps many potential community partners across Manitoba — who were looking for exactly that.
For more information about Wheatland Hockey, visit Wheatland Hockey.

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“Fiddler on the Roof”: First ever joint production between Winnipeg Jewish Theatre and Rainbow Stage is a smash hit

Photo taken from rehearsal of "Fiddler on the Roof"

By BERNIE BELLAN You really can’t go wrong by mounting a production of “Fiddler on the Roof” – and Rainbow Stage has proven that four previous times: in 1971, 1977, 1984, and 1993.
What each of those productions had in common though – aside from the fact that they were solely Rainbow Stage productions, was that each time the star role of Tevye the milkman was played by Cliff Gardner who, in his day job, was the program director at CJOB radio.
I can’t remember how many times I saw Fiddler at Rainbow State previously but, after a while it wasn’t quite the novel experience it was the first time I had seen it there.
But now – as a result of a very creative idea, “Fiddler on the Roof” has been brought back to Rainbow Stage once more – but this time as a co-production with the Winnipeg Jewish Theatre.
The idea for mounting a joint production came from WJT’s artistic director, Dan Petrenko who, as Myron Love noted in an article for The Jewish Post this past February, had observed that “ Because of the times we’re living through, and particularly the growing antisemitism in our communities and across the country, I felt there is a need to tell a story that celebrates Jewish culture on the largest stage in the city – to reach as many people as possible.’ ”
Myron’s article went on to say that “Last year, WJT approached Rainbow Stage with a proposal for the co-presentation of “Fiddler on the Roof.” Rainbow Stage management was really enthusiastic in their response, Petrenko said.”
In my own profile of Dan Petrenko, which I wrote in April 2023, when he first came to Winnipeg, just after having been hired as the WJT’s new artistic director, I noted that “Dan was born in Israel, the son of Jewish parents who had moved from their hometown of Odessa in Ukraine.
“A formative influence in his life, he says, was his grandmother, who had been a pianist in Ukraine. She had aspirations early in her life to study in a music conservatory, but the antisemitism that was pervasive in the Soviet Union prevented her from achieving that ambition. Instead, she had to travel all the way to Siberia in order to obtain training to become a pianist.”
After re-reading my own article about Petrenko in preparation for writing about the new production of “Fiddler on the Roof,” now on at Rainbow Stage until Sept. 13, I couldn’t help but note the parallels in Petrenko’s own life and the story that is at the heart of “Fiddler,” which is one of Jews having to cope with antisemitism in their native Ukraine and finally being forced to leave their home community of Anitevka – for parts unknown.
While “Fiddler” has so many dimensions – from its story of persecution, of girls being kept from studying because of age old taboos, of marriages being arranged, to notions of democracy – and socialism, starting to be espoused in the late 1800s in Eastern Europe – it’s the music that really drives the show.
I don’t have to remind anyone how timeless the songs from “Fiddler” have become. There have been documentaries produced, both about how the Broadway show came about and later, how Norman Jewison crafted a quite different approach to telling the story of Tevye the milkman in his brilliant movie adaptation of the Broadway musical. There have also been several books telling the story how three geniuses: Sheldon Harnick, Joseph Stein, and Jerry Bock, combined to create something that is as timeless in its own way as any musical could ever be.
But, what can you say about the WJT-Rainbow Stage co-production of “Fiddler'” that couldn’t possibly avoid using superlatives? Playing to a sold-out audience on opening night, Wednesday, September 9, even though there was a slight chill in the air as the evening wore on – and certainly mounting a show at Rainbow Stage in September is a chancy proposition – the evening was one of pure magic.
I don’t know who came up with the idea of having the orchestra play behind the performers – as opposed to the usual practice of having them play in the pit in front of the stage – but it was sheer genius to do that. I’ve often attended Rainbow Stage and been frustrated that the singers’ voices are drowned out by the musicians’ instruments – but not this night.
Each note sung could be heard clear as a bell – even from the children who played Tevye and Golde’s youngest daughters.
The performances were universally excellent – all the way from Daniel Kash as Tevye and Debbie Maslowsky (a name very familiar both to WJT and Rainbow Stage attendees) to everyone else in the cast. It would be unfair to single out anyone in the cast for special praise; they were all so good, but if there was one moment that was absolutely thrilling above all else, it was when the opening note to the Russian song “Za vashe zdorovye” (to your health) in the famous tavern scene that culminates with “To Life” was belted out.
And, having the Rusalka Ukrainian dancers perform only added to the evening’s excitement. The exuberance they brought to the wedding scene was a demonstration of how combining the talents of one of Winnipeg’s most exciting dance troupes with many Winnipeg performers who had previously appeared either in WJT or Rainbow Stage productions was a demonstration of just how much talent there is right here in Winnipeg.
Sadly, by the time this is published this version of “Fiddler on the Roof” is only scheduled to be performed two more times: Saturday, Sept. 12, at 7:30 pm and Sunday, Sept. 13, at 2:00 pm. Tickets had been going fast as of the time of publication, but if you want to check with the box office, the number is 204-989-0888

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