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At Limmud: New University of Manitoba president Michael Benarroch speaks of the challenges presented by stepping into his role in midst of a pandemic
By BERNIE BELLAN While there were a great many interesting speakers at this year’s Limmud, the one speaker to whom I was looking most forward to hearing was Michael Benarroch, the new president of the University of Manitoba.
Since returning to Winnipeg last summer after having served as the provost and vice-president of Ryerson University in Toronto since the fall of 2017, Benarroch was thrust headlong into having to take over his position in the midst of a pandemic.
Naturally, there haven’t been many opportunities to see and hear Benarroch, nor to interview him since he returned to Winnipeg, so his appearing at Limmud allowed Limmud participants the chance to hear directly from a man whose career has seen him move steadily up the academic administration ladder in the past 30 years.
At times wistful – in speaking of his family’s having come here from Morocco, at other times contemplative, in discussing how important it is to include Indigenous students and faculty in reshaping the U of M, Benarroch told a story – of how he’s arrived at his present situation in life and what his goals are looking forward.
“My parents never had the opportunity to go to university,” Benarroch explained at the outset of his presentation.
“My family came to Winnipeg (from Morocco) because my mother’s brother was in Winnipeg. My father was a teacher, but when he came to Winnipeg he found a job as a shochet,” Benarroch said.
It was while he was an undergrad at the University of Winnipeg that Benarroch said he developed a “passion for economics”. He later went on to acquire a PhD in Economics from Carleton University – in 1992.
Upon completing his PhD Benarroch returned to the University of Winnipeg. At the time, he explained during his presentation, Lloyd Axworthy was President of the University of Winnipeg and Axworthy asked Benarroch whether the university should have a business school?
“I designed a vision,” Benarroch said, and eventually he became dean of the new Faculty of Business and Economics.
After 19 years at the U of W, Benarroch said he “interviewed for Dean at the Asper School of Business” at the University of Manitoba, which he became in 2011.
“The University of Manitoba is one of 50 research intensive universities in Canada,” Benarroch noted – something that was to prove a factor in his wanting to return here this past year.
In 2017, Benarroch became Provost and Vice-President Academic at Ryerson University.
For Benarroch, Ryerson was a good fit, he explained, because “it had a real focus on community engagement and entrepreneurship.”
As for moving to Toronto, Benarroch admitted that he and his wife, Kim (Bailey), “missed Winnipeg a lot – especially Kim.” Still, by the time they left Toronto this past summer, both their sons (Keenan and Aden) had also moved to Toronto, so returning to Winnipeg was a bit of a mixed blessing for Michael and Kim.
The story how Benarroch came to be president of the University of Manitoba is an interesting one.
When he applied for the position – in 2019, “I didn’t even tell my family I was applying,” he said. And, when he came to Winnipeg to interview for the position, he didn’t even tell his brothers he was here. (Al Benarroch is Executive Director of Jewish Child and Family Service, while Yosef Benarroch is Rabbi of the Adas Yeshurun Herzlia Congregation, although he also lives part of the year in Israel – during normal times. A fourth brother, Yamin, who is also a rabbi, lives in Vancouver).
Ultimately, Benarroch “was offered the position of president (of the U of M) in 2019,” he said, “then Covid hit and turned everything topsy turvy.”
At that point, the host of this particular Limmud session, Faye Rosenberg Cohen, asked Benarroch: “Did you plan out the career part?”
Benarroch responded: “I knew the presidency at the University of Manitoba was coming up. I kept my eye on it, but I thought that (moving to Toronto) was going to be my last move.
“There had to be a good reason for me to move from one institution to another.
“During my time at the Asper School I thought though that I really meshed well with the atmosphere at the University of Manitoba.”
As for Ryerson, Benarroch noted that the school began as a polytechnic institute and it still carries a very large imprint as a technical training school even though it is now a university.
“Ninety-five percent of the students have an experiential background – serving in apprenticeships” and work programs, while attending classes, Benarroch explained.
Part of Benarroch’s mandate while he was at Ryerson, he noted, was to “rebuild the faculty.”
“We went from 700 to over 900 in the three years I was there,” Benarroch stated.
“We hired quite a few younger academics who brought a lot of energy with them,” he added.
Another major change that Benarroch said he helped to foster was a concerted effort to hire more Indigenous instructors.
“When I arrived there were only six Indigenous professors at Ryerson,” he observed.
“Working with students and elders we launched a reconciliation process. We made Ryerson a place where Indigenous people would feel welcome,” including by “hiring 20 new Indigenous staff,” Benarroch said.
“We also brought in a fair bit of scholarship money for Indigenous students,” he added.
Yet, when the opportunity to take over as president of the University of Manitoba presented itself, Benarroch noted, that despite his having fit in well at Ryerson, he said that “you never want to leave a job, but if I hadn’t taken that opportunity I don’t think it would have come up again.”
Rosenberg Cohen asked Benarroch “How has being a religious Jew worked for you, first as a professor, then as an administrator?”
Benarroch replied: “As a prof, it was great. As an observant Jew I was always able to schedule my time so as to be able to observe Shabbat.”
Benarroch mentioned that one of the two sabbatical years he took as a professor was at the University of Haifa, which was of particular significance for him – being able to spend the year in Israel.
However, upon becoming an administrator, Benarroch suggested, “my schedule was not mine as much as it was in the past…At Ryerson, the president was an observant Muslim, so I always I had to make sure I was on campus on Fridays while he was attending prayers.”
Further, Benarroch noted, while the advent of Zoom during the pandemic has certainly enabled teaching and meetings to carry on, Zoom has, in fact, “made it harder to remain Shabbat observant.”
Prior to the pandemic, he explained, if he had a meeting or conference to attend – even on a Shabbat, “I would be staying in a hotel and I could attend a meeting – without taking any notes.”
Now, it’s impossible to participate in a Zoom session during Shabbat, he said – and since the workday seems to have expanded to include almost any hour of the day, Benarroch admitted that, as much as technology has allowed meetings to be held relatively easily, it has presented problems for him having to decide between his obligations as a university president and his religious observance.
As for some of the other more noticeable effects that the pandemic has had on his role as president at the U of M, Benarroch said: “I have four staff members in my office; I’ve seen one of them in person.”
Benarroch told the Limmud audience that, prior to assuming his new role, he read a book offering advice on “how to be a university president”.
(Rosenberg Cohen asked the question that was probably on everyone else’s minds at that point: Are there enough people in the world who would be in the position that they were interested in becoming a university president that it would be worth it to write a book about that subject?)
In any event, Benarroch said that this particular book did offer two really good pieces of advice:
1. Don’t make a major decision during your first six months in the new position;
and 2. Go out and meet as many people as you can off the bat.
(Obviously, the second piece of advice was thrown out the window when Benarroch returned to Winnipeg during the pandemic.)
In terms of how the pandemic will change the way university courses are taught even following the pandemic, Benarroch suggested that what is likely to occur is that professors will teach classes where some students attend in person while other students will take those same classes online.
“We’re also looking to have classes for Indigenous students up north” offered online, following on the success of Zoom teaching during the pandemic, he suggested.
While “there has been a lot of resistance to teaching online among academics,” Benarroch admitted, “students have been adapting.”
With reference to how many students are actually enrolled at the university this academic year, Benarroch observed that, while there are “fewer first year students at the University of Manitoba, there have been more students return for second, third, and fourth year” than in previous years.
“Enrolment is definitely up,” Benarroch said, “and we expect to see the majority of students return again in the fall.”
Rosenberg Cohen asked: “If I were a parent, thinking of spending money to send my child to a university somewhere, why would I spend all that money when they can take their classes online?”
Benarroch’s response was that, while virtual classes will certainly be a major part of whatever format universities eventually evolve into becoming, there is going to be a greater emphasis on “more participation, more research, more experiential. There are going to be more opportunities outside the classroom”, but they are going to be in person, not online.
As an example, Benarroch said he’s planning on creating a “student start-up zone”, in which students will start their own businesses.”
“It’s better to fail at a business when you’re 23 than when you’re 55,” Benarroch observed.
Rosenberg Cohen asked: “What are your hopes and dreams?”
Benarroch said, “Here at the University of Manitoba we have a tremendous testing capacity. Winnipeg could become a testing centre for vaccines,” for instance he suggested.
Continuing on the thread of what his hopes and dreams are, Benarroch said: “I’d like to see the University of Manitoba become a global leader in certain areas.
“I’d like to see the university become a racist-free zone.” (He noted that the previous president of the U of M, David Barnard, “had launched a task force on Equality, Diversity, and Integration.)
“We know we can’t stamp out racism, on campus,” Benarroch observed. “The question is how to deal with it.”
Someone in the Zoom audience wondered how one can maintain a balance between stamping out racism while still allowing free speech?
“We’re still a university. We are going to have debate and disagreement,” Benarroch said in response.
Someone else wondered “How does the university compensate for lab work that can’t get done?
Benarroch answered that “We allow 20 percent capacity in some spaces…We’ve also developed a way to hold some of the labs virtually.”
As well, Benarroch said that, for ten days in January, students in the Faculties of Nursing, Science, Architecture, Engineering, and Agriculture, were allowed back on to campus” to conduct lab work – under strict Covid protocols.
I asked a question along these lines (although the names of questioners were not given): Professors are having to spend more time than ever before finding funding for their programs. With the emphasis on practical, results-oriented programs, where will that leave programs that don’t necessarily have practical applications? (My question was not worded precisely that way, but it was along those general lines.)
Benarroch’s response was that “the university brings in just under $200 million a year in research money – the vast majority of which comes from the federal government.”
He added that he has two goals as far as where the money for research goes: to allow students who were doing research prior to Covid to continue doing that work; and to obtain additional money to keep university labs running.
Benarroch also noted that there is now a “massive reinvestment in science in the US. We have to remain competitive in how we pay faculty and how we keep up our labs.”
It seems quite evident, therefore, that Michael Benarroch is going to be preoccupied with finding ever new sources of funding for the university, while trying to retain whatever sources have been in place until now.
It seemed fitting, therefore, that one of his final observations was that “one of my mandates as president is to speak to government”.
Still, lost in all the discussion about funding and research was any reference to the less practical aspects of a university education. Of course, that’s a subject that’s been debated for a very long time. I just wonder where faculties such as Arts are going to end up with the even greater emphasis on “research” oriented programs.
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Eyal Kraut: continuing the family medical tradition
By GERRY POSNER When you talk medicine and family connections to medicine, one of the families you have to think of almost immediately is the Berbrayer- Kraut family. There are three generations of doctors now in this family, starting with Dr. Peter Berbrayer, of blessed memory, an orthopaedic surgeon (and father of Karla); Dr. Allan Kraut (husband of Karla Berbrayer, an internal medicine and occupational health physician; and Allan and Karla’s son, Dr. Eyal Kraut, an endocrinologist, who now lives in Toronto. Not to be overlooked as part of the Berbrayer-Kraut family medical team is Dr. David Berbrayer, son of Peter, and a medical director in rehabilitation redicine in Toronto. Each of these men has made contributions in his respective field and I expect many readers are well aware of that. Perhaps, because he is still young, Eyal, one of four children of Allan and Karla, is less known – although, because of his participation in the community, I am betting younger readers will know him.
Eyal Kraut was born and raised in Winnipeg. He is a product of the then Ramah Hebrew School and later the Gray Academy. It is fair to say that Eyal was exposed to the Jewish world right from the start in many aspects, not the least of which was by way of his mother Karla’s having run the Music and Mavens Programme at the Campus for many years, as well as being a musical impresario of great renown. In his high school years, Kraut was active in multiple leadership positions, including student council and the Jewish Federation’s P2K committee ( now P2G).
And, he was not just limited to school activities as he was what might be called a “player” at the Herzlia Synagogue, where he often led services, not to mention his talent as a shofar blower ( no small skill; I know that from trying for a week without making a sound). Moreover, Kraut taught Bar/ Bat Mitzvah lessons, was on staff at the Rady JCC during his school days, also staff at Camp Massad. In short, Kraut was the full package coming out of high school. He attended the University of Manitoba and graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree. While at the university, he served as president of Hillel. Subsequently, he entered the University of Manitoba Medical School.
In 2014, Eyal Kraut graduated with his MD degree. During his time as a medical student he participated in the Manitoba Medical Students Association and also sat on numerous committees. Upon graduation, Kraut was off to Queen’s University for his residency in internal medicine. It was in Kingston that he met his future wife, Zoey Katz, who was from Toronto. The couple returned to Winnipeg for Eyal’s clinical fellowship in endocrinology, which is the specialty focussing on diabetes and hormones. While he was busy with becoming a doctor, his wife Zoey was a nurse at Children’s Hospital. Now that is taking togetherness to a new level. Even then, Eyal and Zoey helped to lead services at the Simkin Centre.
In 2019, the couple made the decision to move to Toronto. Currently, Eyal works at a clinic in downtown Toronto, while at the same time he also has a weekly clinic at Mount Sinai Hospital. Yet, even with the move to Toronto, Eyal retained his medical license in Manitoba and for several years, he returned to Winnipeg for several days every two months to run a small endocrinology clinic in Winnipeg, located at Confusion Corner, called Cardio 1 Lifesmart. That is what I call staying connected to your roots. Even then, Eyal used his spare time to head to the Rady JCC, as JCC memberships are honoured everywhere there is a JCC. The routine of trips to Winnipeg ultimately concluded just recently – at the end of October. Eyal and Zoey now have a two-year-old son, Asher, with another baby on the way, so the trips to Winnipeg are no longer as feasible as they were. Still, Eyal is clear that he intends to make regular visits (to see family of course,) also to show his kids what life is like in Winnipeg. This is one guy who appreciates from whence he came.
Even with his impressive background, what really makes Eyal stand out is a talent that no one likely knows about and that is Eyal’s ability to recognize people. It was at Beth Tzedec Synagogue in Toronto not long ago – at Yom Kippur services, and with a full sanctuary, when out of the blue, a guy whom I did not know tapped me on the shoulder and asked if I was Gerry Posner. He just picked me out from my photo in the Jewish Post. That photo has me with a baseball cap on my head, but at synagogue I had a kippah on. Now, that is a rare talent. (Ed. note: Oh come on Gerry – you’ve written before how Winnipeggers, including the equally famous Rabbi Matthew Leibl – before he became a rabbi, have spotted you in baseball stadiums across North America and come up to you . You’re world famous for sure!)
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Latest Jewish Foundation Endowment Book of Life signings took place November 3rd
By MYRON LOVE Almost everyone has a story to tell. And, for the past 25-plus years, the Jewish Foundation of Manitoba – through its ongoing Endowment Book of Life program – has been assembling stories of current and former members of our Jewish community.
As explained on the Foundation website, “the Endowment Book of Life program is a planned program that offers participants an opportunity to leave both a financial and historical legacy to the community.”
Donors promise to leave a bequest to the Foundation, in return for which their family stories are inscribed in the Book of Life.
The annual official unveiling of new stories this year was held on Sunday, November 3, at the Shaarey Zedek Synagogue and included brunch, some musical entertainment featuring a talented quartet of singers – including Josh Bellan, Alyssa Crockett, Julia Kroft and Hailey Witt (who have seemingly been the young go-to performers at Jewish community functions over the past year or two) – as well as a poetry reading by members of the StudioWorks Players – and comments by Rabbi Alan Finkel as to why he chose to add his and his family’s stories to the Endowment Book of Life.
In his remarks, Finkel, the recently retired rabbi of Temple Shalom, spoke of his family’s stories – in this case, his family’s stories of the Holocaust. “My family has always shared their stories,” he noted. ”Their stories are part of the Shoah Foundation’s collection of stories. And both my mother (Carmela Finkel – who passed away three years ago) and my Aunt Betty (Kirshner) have shared their stories with hundreds of students at the Holocaust Education Centre. Later, my mother was honoured to have her story included as part of the video displays at the Canadian museum of human Rights.
“But, even as I embraced the power of those survivors’ stories,” he continued, “I could see that the list of story tellers was getting ever shorter. I wondered how those stories would continue to be told once there was no one left to tell them.”
Shortly after his mother’s passing, he said, the family came together to discuss how to continue their mother’s legacy. Their response was to create the Carmela Shragge Finkel Holocaust Education Endowment Fund at the Jewish Foundation of Manitoba – with proceeds directed toward the Jewish Heritage Centre of Western Canada.
“My page in the Endowment Book of Life is more about my personal life journey that led me to become a rabbi at 65,” he said, “but really, behind it all there are a lot of different threads and stories of Jewish community that intertwine and bind us to each other and to our Jewish community. This, to me, is the real gift of the Endowment Book of Life project – allowing each of us to here to tell our own stories in our own ways, to find our own unique paths of building our Jewish community here in Manitoba – and to celebrate how we are all part of klal Yisrael.”
Signatories to the Book of Life this year included: Dr. Sharon Goszer Tritt and Dr. Stephen Tritt; Brenda Honigman – in memory of her late father Sam, and late brother Archie; Ellie Kives – in memory of her husband Philip; David Wilder; Alisa Abrams; Marlene Reiss and Perry Rose; and Moshe Selchen, in memory
of the late Saul Feldman, a friend of the Selchen family. Feldman was a little-known member of our Jewish community who passed away a couple of years ago and left $2.6 million in his will to the Jewish Foundation.
In his introductory remarks, John Diamond, the Jewish Foundation of Manitoba’s CEO, described the Endowment Book of Life program, as “one of our most successful. We last hosted this event in 2022,” he noted, “and, I’m proud to say, I was a signer that year.”
Diamond explained why he and his wife, Heather, chose to commit to our community’s future. “In 2022,” he recalled, “we were beginning to glimpse what the world would look like post-pandemic. That prolonged period of uncertainty gave us the opportunity to think about our community’s future. If the generations before us had not been forward-thinking, prioritizing the next wave of Jewish Winnipeggers, where would we have been during the pandemic? How would our community have looked?
“Simply put, we were and are very fortunate. Thanks to that forethought, we were able to navigate that uncertainty. We need to continue putting future generations in a similar position to what we find ourselves in now.”
In her closing remarks, Dafna Shore, the JFM’s vice chair (who was filling in for chair Dan Blankstein, who was unable to attend), reported that the Endowment Book of Life currently contains over 800 stories.
“Each story is deeply personal and uniquely individual,” she pointed out. “What makes this program so special – and why it resonates with so many people – is the change to immortalize stories that otherwise might go untold.
“Every family has stories, some hidden away about what makes them exceptional. Very few are known beyond those who lived them. Sharing these stories in the Endowment Book of Life celebrates the lives lived in our community. They are an encyclopedia of what makes our community so rich in history, compassion and generosity.”
Shore thanked this most recent group of story tellers for sharing their stories and for committing to making a legacy gift. “Your gesture,” she said, “will serve to inspire the next generation to do the same. As long as our community has individuals who choose to put their community’s longevity at the top of their priorities, our community will continue to thrive.”
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2024 Yom Tov attendance meets expectations
By MYRON LOVE Congregational leaders in our community are, for the most part, quite pleased with Tom Tov attendance this past Yom Tov.
“We sold out our seats,” reports Dr. Rena Secter Elbaze , the Shaarey Zedek’s executive director.
The remodeled and expanded Shaarey Zedek, our community’s oldest and largest congregation, has a capacity of about 900 in the main sanctuary – with an additional 250 for the separate Family Service downstairs.
Once again, this year, the popular Rabbi Emeritus Alan Green – who was the Shaarey Zedek’s senior rabbi for 18 years – returned to lead Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur services in the main sanctuary with Cantor Leslie Emery, the Quartet, and the Ruach Volunteer Choir. Rabbi Anibal Mass led the popular family service with Noah Trachtenberg, a Youth Band and the Dor Chadash Youth Choir.
Shaarey Zedek has, over the past few years, built a substantial following for its Shabbat and Yom Tov services online. Elbaze notes though that the number of people participating in Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur servicers online this year was considerably lower. That was because, she says, many of those congregants were eager to come back to the shul – which just re-opened a couple of months ago after being closed for three years due to construction – and daven in person.
“We were essentially sold out for Yom Tov by early September,” reports Jonathan Buchwald, Congregation. Etz Chayim’s executive director. “Our members were really excited about our first Yom Tov in our new building.”
By necessity – in reflecting the congregation’s slowly declining membership numbers – the new Etz Chayim – at 1155 Wilkes Avenue – is considerably smaller than its predecessor. To accommodate the demand for Yom Kippur seating in particular, Buchwald had earlier reported, the Kol Nidre service was to be held at the Holiday Inn Express at the airport – and there were two services for Yom Kippur day.
Buchwald notes that 335 were in attendance for the first services on Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur service and 120 for the second service on Rosh Hashanah – with 450 for Kol Nidre at the hotel. There were 250 for Neilah and 50 for the Young Family services. About 150 followed online.
As usual, Rabbi Kliel Rose and Cantor Tracy Kasner led Etz Chayim’s High Holiday services – with a separate family service geared toward families with young children as well as a Junior Congregation.
Over at Temple Shalom, our community’s 60-year Reform congregation,Past President Ruth Livingston says that there was “good enthusiasm” for Yom Tov and that the congregation members were very happy with the services led by cantorial soloist Janet Pelletier Goetz as well as long time Temple Shalom member Myriam Saitman – who is set to begin training in September toward her rabbinical ordination – and, for the first time, choir leader Erica Tallis –a 2020 graduate of the Desautels Faculty of Music at the University of Manitoba.
For the second year in a row, South end Winnipeg further offered a fourth liberal Jewish option in the form of Rabbi Matthew Leibl’s “Services on the River: A Modern High Holidays.”
The former Shaarey Zedek – and now independent – rabbi’s services were held once again at The Gates on Roblin – which can accommodate up to 300. Last year, Leibl reported in an earlier interview, about 250 people attended his service. He was expecting to have similar number this year.”
“Services on the River: A modern High Holidays” services were scheduled for the second day of Rosh Hashanah, Erev Yom Kippur and Yom Kippur morning. The services also featured the husband and wife cantorial team of Justin Odwak and Sarah Sommer.
All services were 90 minutes.
Still with the South End, Jack Craven president of Orthodox congregation Adas Yeshurun Herzlia says that people are happy that things are back to normal. “We had a good crowd for Yom Tov,” he says.
The congregation – led by Rabbi Yossi Benarroch – has a membership of about 100 and can accommodate up to 250.
“We were filled up for Rosh Hashonah and Yom kippur,” notes Rabbi Avroham Altein, Winnipeg’s senior Chabad-Lubavitch Rabbi of the south end Lubavitch Centre. “We also had a full house for Erev Simchas Torah.”
The Lubavitch Centre has a capacity of between 200 and 300.
The Simkin Centre also held Yom Tov services – on all three days – that were open to the general public. The services were led by Steven Hyman with the Simkin Centre Choir under the direction of Bonnie Antel.
In the North End, the Conservative egalitarian Chevra Mishnayes congregation – the largest congregation in that part of the city with the relocation of Etz Chayim south – saw a bit of a bump in attendance.
“We had 20 new people this year,” reports Chevta Mishnayes President Rob Waldman. “This is the first time that we have seen an uptake in attendance for Yom Tov since before the Covid lockdowns.”
Last year, just under100 came to the Garden city shul for Yom Tov.
This year’s service were once again led by Al Benarroch.
About 18 months ago, a new North End Orthodox congregation came into being as a result of the merger of the struggling Chavurat Tefila and Talmud Torah Beth Jacob members. The renamed Chavurat Tefila Talmud Torah Congregation – located at on the corner of Hartford and McGregor in West Kildonan – attracted between 40 and 50 daveners for its first Yom Tov services last year last year and about the same number this year.
Services at the shul this year were led by Cantor Menachem Frenkel from Silver Spring, MD.
“Cantor Frenkel was recommended by a friend and member of the shul,” says Cary Rubenfeld, the shul’s treasurer and spokesperson. “He was quite well received by the congregation. He is a multi-talented ba’al tefilah. He brought with him an extensive range of traditional and contemporary melodies which the congregants enjoyed.”
The venerable House of Ashkenazie, the last of our community’s old-style Orthodox congregations, was once again the only shul to report a bit of a decline in attendance from last year – with attendance for Yom Tov hovering around 30. Shul President Gary Minuk avers though that the Ashkenazie – which still holds services throughout the year on Thursday mornings – will continue to carry on “as long as we can still make minyans.”
Our community’s most northerly High Holiday services were held at Camp Massad. After a two year absence due to the Covid lockdowns, Camp Massad resumed its innovative Rosh Hashanah service last year. In pre-Covid times, Massad executive director Danial Sprintz noted last year, Rosh Hashanah at Massad had attracted as many as 150 participants. In 2023, 90 attended. This year’s attendance, he reports, was slightly higher.
“Our people were excited to come together,” he says. “We always offer a creative and interactive service that combines some traditional prayers with contemporary readings, folk music and our usual Camp Massad shtick.”
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